NYTimes Readers Respond

...creating some odd effects somehow; the medium contains the outrage and turns it into filler product:


Readers' Comments

Senate Approves Broad New Rules to Try Detainees

The Senate approved far-reaching rules yesterday on the interrogations and trials of terrorism suspects that would make illegal several broadly defined abuses and strip detainees of a habeas corpus right to challenge their detentions in court.

Republicans have described the new rules as necessary in the war against terrorism, and argued that they do not alter American obligations under the Geneva Conventions.

Democrats, in contrast, have painted the measure as a fundamental threat to the foundations of the American legal system.

What is your view of the detainee bill headed to the president’s desk?

Related Article | Text of the Senate Bill

368 comments
Candy Clarke:

This measure is yet another cynical maneuver by a shamelessly greedy, sadistic administration that only cares about enriching its already rich buddies. These are people who would hold up babies to protect themselved from gunfire, then blame the Democrats for putting babies in their hands.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:29 am
Craig S. Armstrong:

The detainee bill is not only an afront to the American legal system, which is infair by many measures, but more importantly, the detainee bill is an affront to the principles of any nation, especially the U.S.A. How can any civilized country be engaged in such activity. It is evidence of the further deterioriation of what made the U.S.A. a beacon for human principles and a good indicator of how lost our moral compass has become. And what’s really scary is how complacent the vast majority of the population is about this tragic development.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:48 am
Brian:

We glad to see this rule to deal with the trials of terrorism suspects efficiently under the Geneva Conventions.
Maybe some guys would say the measure is a threat to the foundations of the American legal system.However it is an evolution yet.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:53 am
Carol Hamitlon:

The bill in question demonstrates an ignorance not only of American history but also of the British history that preceded the founding of this country. 17th and 18th century political discourse–including The Federalist #84–is full of arguments against “arbitrary” power–i.e., the power of a king to toss someone in the Tower of London without explanation, evidence, or trial (”due process”). The opposite to “arbitrary rule” is “the rule of law,” which sets standards for everyone involved, regardless of rank. It took over a hundred years for habeas corpus to become an accepted right, yet in one presidential term, an ignorant, self-righteous group of men is recklessly discarding it.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:58 am
ADOLFO:

I never thought that I would see the day when USA reach the bottom of No Rights for no one under Law for Torture of Mr GWBush is just amazing that August PINOCHET was torturing withoput Law in Chile but now USA has a called President who will have the Right to Torture who ever is suspect of Terrorism or be against Him. Salute to the New Emperor !! And after that Not even GOD will save America from Dictatorship ready to roll now. Greetings.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:09 am
Earl:

There are few legal rights here in lawyer run USA and one of the issues the press needs to address is not so much how the war against the terrorists is fought but why is the U.S. talking about “democracy” so much when all 3 branches of U.S. gov’t are dominated and run by lawyers and this is know as the legal caste. A caste can be a family thing like in India but it can also be a professional thing such as one professional group dominating and running the government. Late American newspaper publisher and editor, Edward W. Scripps, wrote: “If there is such a thing as true freedom and democracy then the road to that goal lies over and through the ruin and annihilation of the legal caste.”

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:15 am
Jo MacClelland:

We stand condemned before the world as unprincipled hypocrites, liars, and bullies of the worst kind. Never again will we be able to claim the high moral ground on any world issue. We have thrown away what made us great. It will be a long time, if ever, before we can hold up our heads and claim pride in being American.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:16 am
Kelli:

How many egregious breaches of our Constitution can one administration commit?

I’ll give Bush his due, though: With this one bill, he has scared the hell out of me.

God save us, because our rubber-stamp Congress will not.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:17 am
Richard Yarnell:

In the year 1984,… I’m sorry, in the year 2006, the remedy can be found in 1776.

Not a single person in the House or the Senate who voted for this bill has executed his obligation under the oath he took to defend the Constitution of the United States.

This is not an anti-terrorism bill, it is anti-democracy. If I were a cartoonist, I would draw bin Laden and Bush toasting marshmallows, not on bayonets or swords, but on pens, over a fire consuming the Bill of Rights.

We should be very, very afraid.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:22 am
Virj:

So what now, we fight terror using terror (on our own citizens)? What does that makes the government, legal terrorists?

There was a time, when people understood that there is a price for democracy. That price was, among others, that people were innocent until proven guilty (this is NOT the case anymore). That price was, among others, that people were not to be detained unless they were charged with a crime (this is NOT the case anymore). That price was, among others, that people have a right to a speedy trial (the government has taken away this right ALREADY). The republicans are always giving this sweet talk about protecting our constitution, well, what they are doing ti twisting it and reinterpreting it to fit their political and religious agenda.

Hey, this is was Osama bin Laden is also doing with his politics and religion. The republicans are truely no better.

For those republicans who are so blind, Osama bin Laden has effectively already won, thanks to the republicans. We are now living in a police state and we are no better, as a country, than any banana repressive republic on this planet. It is just that we are too blind to see it because too many republicans are willing to support their party for religious reasons rather than reasons that are good for America. And if we don’t save America now, it may be too late when our eyes finally do open.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:29 am
bart:

Absolutely required! We need to take these guys off the street as long as terrorist attacks remain a threat. Let them go … bang!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:31 am
Sternberg:

We have already played nice too often while Terrorsits have systematically murdered our citezens and allies. The Constitution extends the right of Habeus Corpus “except in the case of invasion or rebellion”. We need to take preventative measures against those who have been doing us harm for 40+ years just as surely as we nedd to practice preventative medecine.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:32 am
Donald L Reid:

Sadly, in the eyes of many people elsewhere in this small world of ours, a great country like the USA is losing considerable credibility because of the way in which it treats people who are “suspects.” Some of the horrendous happenings in what appear to be “illegal” detention centres, firth of American soil, is very worrying indeed for people who value freedom and fairplay. The problem with global terrorism is very real, but the situation can only be made much worse of we treat people in places like Iraq with great disrespect. Any country which is occupied by a foreign power will ultimately rebel. The question which needs to be asked is why is USA and UK now up to their ears in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? There will doubtless be many more lives lost as we interfere in countries where our presence is unwanted. The watchword of countries such as USA and UK, wherever we go in search of bringing stability, must be FAIRNESS AND JUSTICE.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:35 am
Thomas Guzman:

I am saddened to say that we will not have the benefit of living under THE Constitution and THE democracy which so many have died to preserve.

The issue of how to handle combatants is just the tip of the iceberg. The real matter comes down to unimpeded executive power. This agreement grants the president to define who are suspects and what can be done to them, without habeas corpus guarantees for the accused.

This administration has been adamant to do anything, regardless of the cost to our democracy in order to provide them with “legal” cover to do what they want, to whomever they want, anywhere in the world.

I swear that our President and his cabinet must have come to the conclusion that groups like the Taliban must have gotten it right except that they were praising the wrong God.

How did our government become so radicalized that we are taking on the same narrow view of human rights and religious zeal as the people that flew those planes into our towers?

To show how far we have slipped from the norm, this legislation provides for Soviet Union era-treatment of political prisoners. Instead of a Gulag we have legal black holes which allow secret detainee bases around the world.

Our president must have believed our pre-9/11-democracy was not up to the task of fighting the people who attacked us that September day.

He constantly advocates and legislates that he and a handful of his advisors are more up to the task; so they slowly and methodically began to erode our Constitution, our rights and freedoms so many people have died for, to give him a free hand.

Sometimes I feel as though I am in the middle of a Twilight Zone movie marathon. If the terrorists wanted to truly destroy America, they couldn’t have asked for a better unwitting accomplice than George W. Bush.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:43 am
Jeanne M. Storm:

I am proud of my Vermont representatives who refused to be bulied by our unprincipled President.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:45 am
Paul Grimsrud:

“He who fights monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.” Nietzsche
I’m afraid it might be to late for the current administration.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:51 am
Peter Kowalsky:

This is the end of our Constiirution and our Bill of Rights. It is a further consolidation of power in the hands of a unitary executive who came to power in a Coup d’etat in 2000 . If Hillary becomes president can she declare Arnold an enemy combatant?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:00 am
disgusted:

Now, you can relax Mr. Bush. The courts will not be able to touch you for your war crimes.

Enjoy your retirement in Crawford.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:18 am
GWB:

Since when is water boarding torture?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:25 am
Rosemary Molloy:

Where in the hell are the democrats, the independents, the socialists, and the unaffiliated in this mess? The three republicans who “stood up” to the fascists easily folded (I’m not convinced the whole thing wasn’t a carefully orchestrated setup) and there doesn’t seem to be anybody else to step up to the plate. Oh, I forgot–hordes of ordinary citizens are espressing their outrage at this rape of our constitutional protections, but who gives a damn about them? Not the politicians, that’s a cinch.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:28 am
Teresa Birchard:

After 9/11 I remember a surge a patriotism as Americans came together in grief and in support of principles that made our country proud. This detainee bill is a betrayal of our country”s stand on freedom and individual rights.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:41 am
Peter Kowalsky:

It is a further consolidation of power into the hands of an incompetent tyrannical unitary executive that came to power in a Coup d’etat in 2000.Habeas Corpus r.i.p.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:58 am
mike burnash:

this bill show that the people who hate us are already winning. shame, shame, shame

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:04 am
Grammy:

Three cheers for the brave politicians who stood up to that little Hitler-in-training and his crew!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:05 am
Jody P.:

Beautifully written Mr Guzman, no. 12.
I wonder if this forum will receive as much attention as a new Paris Hilton sex tape might.
Reading Toqueville recently, I was reminded what a beautiful and just system our forefathers laid out for us. We have perverted it some throughout our history and it’s not perfect, but it is the most exceptional example of what a democracy can offer its people: remember “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?”
Some govt 101 for those who have forgotten : We have three branches of government. These branches have the power to check and balance each other. Secret prisons were set up outside of the US by the administration in order to avoid America’s judicial system. They didn’t want the court butting into their business. Now, with this new legislation, we have an executive power deciding what interrogation techniques are permissible, which smugly scoffs at the Geneva Conventions, and a judicial power, hands tied, unable to contest. We will also see prisoners refused the most basic rights given to a defendant in a trial.
If you think, America, that this is good for us, that this is necessary for the war on terror, you don’t understand the basic principles of the most fundamental idea of our form of democracy and the reason why we have been so strong throughout history. Justice is not only what makes our enemies weaker than us, but it is what makes us strong and civil together within our own communities. It is the reason why our country has been so admired by the world in the past.
We are shooting ourselves in the foot. Not only are our basic principles being spit upon by our own President (see: torture), but his administration is messing with the most important part of our government: three branches of power to check and balance each other.
We must realize that this is an important moment in our history. My grandfather fought in WWII for these principles. I know he would be ashamed today to see us being so extremely blinded by fear that we would compromise our most basic beliefs.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:23 am
MaryAnne:

This bill shows that the Republican party and members of congress are totally willing to uncheck President Bush’s power. Single party government is destroying our democracy.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:24 am
Deborah Schultz:

The so-called detainee bill is not simply a threat to American legal principles; it effectively undoes those principles and leaves us with little safeguard from the government. It is a huge blot on our history. It will do nothing to stop terrorism while, at the same time, vastly expanding the definition of terrorism and obscuring the actions the government takes to quell the rising tide it has created. This bill is hysteria made law. It is shameful.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:27 am
Robert E. DiNardo:

Anyone who thinks this bill is not a threat to legal principles isn’t playing with a full deck. The Bush administration has proven time and time again that power and total control is all that matters, and they will do anything to maintain their status quo. And now they’re trying to frighten us into giving them all the latitude they need to completely take over our lives. In my entire sixty-seven years I have never felt so unsafe. And not from terrorists but from the people who claim to be protecting us.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:28 am
Gerry Briels:

In his political testament,written in 1644, Johan Maurits, governor of the West Indian Company in North East Brasil, declared his opposition to the use of torture because it produces false and geniune confessions alike and destroys the innocent.
This 362 years old opinion has been confirmed by the main stream of scientific, medical and even intelligence professions. Maurits was not known to be a softy but apparently saw no purpose in obtaining useless information by hurting enemies.
Gerry Briels

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:33 am
Thomas Doremus:

What do the Republicans have planned next? With all these powers they want to grant the president perhaps they’ll try to give him a crown. Would that make him King George IV?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:36 am
Marilynn Murray:

How many American’s being held as a detainees will it take for people to wake up to this fascist regime? If you aren’t afraid, you should be.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:37 am
Carl Ian Schwartz:

Unfortunately, the new bill on terrorism suspects is another nail in the coffin of our Constitution. The trouble is that very few people see it. I am grossly disapppointed in the votes of my own state’s senators (Lautenberg and Menendez), who should know better.
At this point, there is no fixed, legal definition of a “terrorist.” It can be ANYBODY, and once so labelled, you lose your rights in these United States–now worse than ever because rather than being simply administrative law, it’s an act of Congress, and as such less subject to challenge in the courts.
Never before in our history has the Executive Branch manipulated fear as skillfully to maintain political power. Unfortunately, the results–both short- and long-term–will be devastating. For the past twenty-five years, the party in power has made the word “tax” a four-letter one, and has created a political culture where taxation is toxic. It is not–it is the basis for civilized living. By enacting giveaways to the richest 1% of Americans at the expense of the rest, the Republicans have weakened public education, infrastructure, and now defense. They refuse to enact a draft, and our armed forces are stretched too thin in Iraq. Their supplies are inadequate–and Administration cronies are in on the skim in armed forces logistics.
How do you close the gap and prevent public scrutiny? By manipulating FEAR. Since taxes have been demonized, their collection/enforcement starved, our infrastructure weakened, and our armed forces inadequate, the public (increasingly less informed) is given scapegoats.
This new act of Congress will give rise to a game of social musical chairs, where some people become outcasts to feed the greedy. We have seen such games played before in outright dictatorships, where a certain group is demonized, victimized, robbed, and killed. It doesn’t work in the long term–another group has to be demonized, victimized, robbed, and killed.
Now that anyone can be a “terrorist,” this is happening in these United States.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:39 am
androo:

The Detainee Bill is a tool to wage a ” war OF terror ” on humanity including Citizens of United States. By enacting this law the Senate has upgraded Mr Bush from President to Emperor

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:47 am
Marwan Kasih:

I am Syrian American &have been living In ths great country for the past 42 years I came here for the freedom &democracey this country has ,but I am sorry to say this administration is taken It away.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:51 am
Tom Gibson:

Let’s see how all the brave and patriotic hypocrites stand up to be accounted for when other countries apply the exact same treatment to US soldiers. The rest of the world looks at the USA and wonders how it ever came to be in such a cloud-cuckoo-land state of existence. Make no mistake about it, this generation’s grandchildren will curse their grandparents for the poisonous and shameful legacy they knowingly passed on.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:55 am
Kurt Strahm:

The bill fits (their political scheme) perfectly, as Bush and his henchmen do their best to make each of us complicit, first asking:
.
- Did 9/11 make you want to kill someone? -> Let’s invade Iraq.
.
… and now asking:
.
- Does our failure make you nervous? Are you starting to get the feeling we’ve suckered you down the wrong road and it’s making us all look vulnerable? -> Let’s make pointless torture legal, to show we’re serious as Hitler!
.
The only good thing to come out of this whole Bush / GOP Era is the chance (like in early Nazi Germany) to see who takes which side, and how easily people accept lies that serve their bitterness and greed.
.
I just hope (counter to the bill’s intent) people are held responsible for their actions.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:58 am
Don Meegan:

this is not an anti-terrorism bill; it is an anti-American bill. fascism is fast creeping into our country.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:05 am
Ed March:

Chill out, everybody! As with most other hot political “issues” these days, this bill probably will not do what either side says it will.
I’d be willing to bet the interrogation techniques approved in this bill will produce no additional reliable information on the plans of any terrorist anywhere. And I’d be willing to bet that the detentions approved by the bill will produce no more terrorsts’ convictions in court, ours or anybody else’s.
Our rights have not been denied us. Habeas corpus has been suspended before, most notably in Abe Lincoln’s efforts to reunite the nation divided by a real Civil War. We survived that “erosion,” and I’m sure we will survive this one. The pendulum will swing again.
Relax, everybody.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:07 am
Council Mattoon:

I thought these were suspects, but the sponsors of this bill speak as if they have been convicted. Our bill of rights and constitution are the things that make us better than the others. If we give those up, why are the “terrorists” any worse than we.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:07 am
Javier:

I think it is necessary to fight these criminals. Nietzsche was an idiot.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:09 am
Paulboy:

Clearly a threat to our legal system and sense of fairness, our American tradition. I believe it was Josef Goebbels who said something to the effect that if government officials tell the public that something is for their safety and security, they can get away with anything. We saw where that led.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:12 am
Barry Wiedenkeller:

I find this very distressing. I live in Thailand and we recently had a coup which replaced a potential dictator, Thaksin.

This is a small well received revolution. That is it is well received in Thailand. Of course the GW Bush administration has cut some aid. to Thailand.

they must feel that this kind of popular revolution may be possible in our country, I hope so.

I hate to think all that good English tea went into Boston harbor for nothing. Come on guys get out on hte streets remember Vietnam?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:12 am
Frank Avila:

“These are bad men!” How can this be said accurately unless it is proven , on a case by case basis, in a court of law?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:12 am
Kevin Beane:

This action, along with many others that this administration and congress have taken, sets a danderous precedent for our country. It appears that in the name of defense we are willing to violate not only our own laws and principles but those that we have agreed upon in the Geneva Convention. Discarding freedom in the name of freedom is hypocrital and dangerous. I love my country but am ashamed of how we are acting and what we have become. I hope we can recognize what we are doing and demand that our elected officials abide by the values that we claim to believe in.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:14 am
John Chuckman:

You need to ask this? The people associated with this legislation are cowards, true moral cowards who swagger and abuse the powerless. It is no surprise that Bush would be the Torture President, but my God there must be a special place in hell for John McCain after his role in this legislation.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:15 am
Gordon Ashworth:

This bill is damaging to the people of this country is three ways.

It is an expression of the hopeless fear of the lawmakers who voted for it.

It sends a clear message to the rest of the world that here is a country whose brand of democracy is not to be trusted. Our citizens will suffer as a result of the world’s response to this bill.

Lastly, it takes away fundamental legal rights that should never be taken away from our people, not here and not in any country.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:20 am
Marcus Taylor:

This is a black day for America. For the first time in my life I am arranging my affairs so that I my leave this fascist leaning country (remember Germany prior to WWII) before the constitution is totally shredded. Everything we have stood for for over 200 years has been trashed by these idiots in the White House and Congress. 65 men have condemed our children and grandchildren to world wide scorn. Osama has won, he knows it and now I know it too. Lord help us the destruction of America is now complete. History repeats itself time and time again. Does anyone remember the “Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire”.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:24 am
Michele:

It’s a dark, sad day in American history when two bills are passed–one suspending habeas corpus and codifying into law many of the abuses that shocked the world at Abu Graib, the other legalizing warrantless wiretapping. I’m afraid and ashamed of this president and the congress.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:26 am
Brett Lindenbach:

Mr. Bush, it is shameful that you find the internationally accepted definition of torture to be unclear, and seek to conveniently redefine it. Frankly, it is time you stepped down!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:27 am
J. Russell:

The passage of S.3930 by 12 Democrat and 53 Republican Senators is a disgrace. A WashingtonPost.com article, reporting on the Senate action Friday, included the following: “University of Texas constitutional law professor, Sanford V. Levinson, described the bill, in an Internet posting, as the mark of a ‘banana republic.’ Yale Law School Dean, Harold Koh, said that ‘the image of Congress rushing to strip jurisdiction from the courts in response to a politically created emergency is really quite shocking, and it’s not clear that most of the members understand what they’ve done.’” Sixty-five Congressmen and women have sold-out their good conscience and their country…or are totally oblivious to the serious ramifications that will materialize from what they have done, as Dean Koh has stated! The former motivation is shameful; while the latter motivation is unforgivable!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:27 am
Gerald Asher:

Our enemies, we are told repeatedly, hate “freedom and democracy.” Will someone now please tell us exactly who America’s enemies are?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:29 am
Elmer:

It seems to me that the former Sovjet Union’s KGB —-(the dreaded secret police that commited unspeakable tortures on its citizens and non citizens, for example, in the 1960’s Garry Powers the US U2 pilot was instructed by the US to commit suicide if captured, because the US was aware of the brutal KGB torture methods, –but Garry opted not to kill himself)—- have been transplanted and now being carefully nursed in the USA.
This present administration seems to be demolishing the constitutional rights of its citizens.
Sad to see that the last bastion of freedom in the world the USA is now at the edge of a cliff…..
If we only say, God save the USA ,is not enough. It is our duty to vote to save the country from this rampaging tyranny. But I am afraid that the cyber space voting machines are already fixed.

Elmer Teleki, participant in the 1956 Hungarian revolution, was admitted to the USA by President Eisenhower, naturalized in 1962.
I love this country, but now, I am crying

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:36 am
roger:

Condolence form letters to bereaved families indicate how much the lives and wellbeing of our brave mean to republican chicken hawks.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:40 am
steve G:

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes, Who shall guard the guards :Juvenal

Indeed, who watches the watchers???

While no one is supposed to use the word, this bill being passed is simply one more step towards it. Facism, ugly word isnt it, but with our “leaders” choosing to let our ‘decider in chief’ select who among us is the most guilty and most in need of disappearing, we are only a few lock steps away from it. Sad, embarrasing, infuriating.
When the next country decides to remake their own definitions of torture, and we get to see Rumsfeld (or Rice or whoever) crying and wringing their hands on television about imporoper treatment of OUR citizens and solidiers, maybe then we will realize what a foolish thing this has been. My only hope is that if not before he leaves office, soon afterwards, George and his cohort are all hauled off to the Hague.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:43 am
John Russell:

Beyond the real ant-democratic issues, why would you give more executive power to any individual or group who have so consistantly demonstrated their incompetence, and willingness to lie and cheat to cover up that incompetence? Simple question. Boggles the mind.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:44 am
Pat:

Will we ever be able to be proud to be American again? Who is going to lead us out of this darkness? These are such depressing times! How are we going to undo all the damage that has been done under this administration?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:45 am
JIM BUCHANAN:

I can’t believe any right given should be taken without due process. We do not live in the days of “Old West Justice” anymore and life has become too precious to be thrown away in a reckless manner.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:46 am
Harold S Kramer:

The GOP will rue the day they voted to pass a bill that will give Bush the authority “to establish specific permissible interrogation techniques, and strip detainees of a habeas corpus right to challenge their detentions in court.” This seems such an egregious outrage that I can’t help wonder - what did Bush promise or threaten legislators to get their support.? Maybe a Special Prosecutor should investigate? And why didn’t the Democrats, and others who objected to this Draconian law walk out en masse - or at least - march on the Whitehouse with torches and pitchforks chanting - “Stop The Torture.”

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:48 am
Richard Weaver:

This an assault on the Constitution. It shames us in front of the world, as we turn our backs on the principles that have made us admired. It puts arbitrary power, without oversight, in the hands of one person - one who has already shown himself incompetant at handling terrorism and yet ruthless at politics.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 7:58 am
Don:

No. Absolutely not. This is not the most dangerous enemy we have ever faced and these are not the most dangerous times we have faced. This is probably the most amateur and incompetent administration we have ever had.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:00 am
James Schmitt:

In the hands of most administrations these new laws would not be a problem. However in the hands of wrong headed ones, including the Bush-Cheney one, serious conditions for individual personal freedoms are on the line. Anyone including innocent American citizens can be branded and thrown in jail forever with no recourse. They only need incur the displeasure of someone in the administration. God help us.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:09 am
Thierry:

The foundations of the American legal system are seen in the world as a strong basis to any democratic country. Modifying them is a step towards a new world where people talking about spreading democracy elsewhere (i.e. Middle East) have no credibility at all.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:10 am
Robert Allen:

Now that we can have secret tribunals with torture “evidence,” why dawdle around further? Why not just go where this is headed — Republican Party secret police, torture jails, and death squads. Why bother with further charades about “rights” and “law”?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:11 am
Earl:

What American “legal principles”? Consider the two cases (1965 & 1995) before the U.S. District Court for Western District of North Carolina (Asheville, N.C.), U.S.-vs-Wheby and the fact that these so-called “crimes” were nothing more than cheescake 8mm 5 minute films and the second “conviction” was due to sending evidence to the court to show the first conviction was for something no longer against the law and the prosecution in the second case was based solely on sending the evidence to the court! This is AmeriKan “justice”! Now, here in un-free U.S., where all 3 branches of the government are run and dominated by LAWYERS, where is the criminal prosecutions for all the firms making millions of dollars a year producing hard core porno films and videos and flooding the U.S. mails with them? I will tell you. There is no prosecutions because your lawyer “leaders”, who were damned by Jesus in Luke 11:52, openly stand for DOUBLE STANDARDS of “justice” and these same lawyers are not prosecuted for their defeated foreign policies in Vietnam because here in U.S. lawyers don’t sue or prosecute each other. There is little “justice” in U.S. so what in the world could you be referring to when you speak of “legal principles”?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:12 am
John F Callan:

SECURITY = PROTECTION FROM HARM ( internal and external)

If our constitutional rights are being taken away, no matter by whom , and no matter why,

The people of the USA are being harmed,

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:15 am
Earl E. Bush, Jr.:

The primary purpose of the detainee bill is to expand the powers of the executive branch. The price, unfortunately, is a serious threat to some of the constitutionally guaranteed freedoms of the American people.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:16 am
Eileen:

What’s wrong with “regular” Republicans? Are they will to close their eyes to moral corruption in favor of their pocketbooks?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:17 am
Ann:

This is emblematic of the fact that the Republicans will do anything to retain absolute power. It is very disturbing and against our consistitution. The Republicans are in bed with all of the special interests and this bill shows that they are chipping away at our rights. Goodness help our men and women abroad — this bill should make many think twice before going over to fight due to the potential reprocussions on safety.

Next year we will all be citizens of Halliburton.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:18 am
Stuart Day:

The trashing of our Constitution and our Laws “so the C.I.A. can have the tools it needs to get the job done” is a strategy on par with the one we claim to be waging a ‘war’ against.

If the matching strategy of those who wish to do us harm is to dupe us into harming ourselves, the detainee bill just rushed through Congress is the latest example of what our enemies are unable to accomplish for themselves and are all too happy for us to do on their behalf.

At this rate, we’re making it harder than ever for them to lose. “Sic Semper Tyrannis”, indeed, Senator Warner (R-VA)..

Stuart Day
St. Rémy-de-Provence

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:19 am
Carolyn:

When you study the McCarthy era in history, or the Japanese interment camps, you wonder how all of that could possibly have happened.

Now we now. Fear, hysteria, political manuevering….now coded into law,
and all in the name of winning elections.

What kind of coalition does Bush have if it is a coalition of fear?

I believe this law will be found unconstitutional by the courts, and I feel students of the future will read about this time and wonder, how could this have happened in America?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:20 am
ceci:

Shame on these Democrats who voted AYE!

Carper (D-DE)
Johnson (D-SD)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Salazar (D-CO)
Stabenow (D-MI)

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:21 am
Phil Patterson:

The detainee law that the republicans just passed is the most un-American piece of legislation I’ve seen in 57 years. Why can’t the Bush regime operate like every other administration? Why do the law have to be perverted for them to achieve whatever it is they’re trying to achieve? They don’t know how to govern by the normal rules?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:22 am
Not an apologetic American:

All those who want to whine, cry and wring their hands, saying that America is such a rotten place. Go ahead and sit down with the terrorists see how quick they are to throw you to the groound and saw through your neck with a dull rusty knife, laughing the whole time. You think they care if you are a card carrying member of the ACLU or a haliburton vp? This is the real world folks not an abstract homework assigment given by some product of the 60s liberal professor. Spend some time overseas as I have dealing with people who despise us, not for who is running our country or because of our foreign policy but because we are America, the land of mindless Hollywood drivel,excess to the extreme and in their minds the reincarnation of Saddam and Gomorrah. Hate yourselves if you want but you need to quit hating America so much. If you really hate it then you have the freedom to go elsewhere…..

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:23 am
ken warner:

Can you all see that the people who want to destroy us are more than willing to use unconventional techniques to do that? Have you forgotten the 90’s and the attacks that happened then? New tactics demand new responses to defend our country. The French adhered to WW1 thinking as Germany developed new strategies, and the French had to capitulate when confronted with those tactics.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:25 am
Phil Patterson:

Bush should be impeached immediately and members of his “administration” should be imprisoned. This is the most serious attack on America yet. The terrorists have won. Bush is scared to death and acting like a petulant punk.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:25 am
Alan Hyatt:

I see that George W Bush has not learned anything from America’s recent history. During World War II we upheld the Geneva Convention on German soldiers in this country to the letter. The rules state that prisoners of war be fed, clothed, housed and medically cared for at the same level as our Troops! This demonstrated to the world what America and Democracy stood for. If religion is going to be a part of politics it should be the very foundation of all religions of the World “The Golden Rule of Ethics”. Do unto others as you would have do unto you.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:26 am
Kenn Pearson:

This bill should serve as a warning to Americans that YOU are next. If there are few protests to the rights of others, it will make it that much easier for this power-mad administration to steal away even more American rights, all under the pretense of fighting a ridiculously open-ended, and money-draining, War on Terrorism. This proves the real number one terrorist in the world is George W. Bush! He’s about as religious as one of the Sopranos.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:27 am
Rachel:

I am scared for my children and the world that they may be growing up in.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:28 am
C. A. Hudson:

65 Senators need to be asked to go read the German Enabling Act of 1933. Their just past Bill on Detainees gives Bush remarkably similar descretionary powers the earlier act gave Hitler. A sad day for real Democracy. A discraceful day for Senate Democrats too spineless to object and filibuster.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:29 am
Terence Gaffney:

The NYT editorial “Rushing off a cliff” is exactly right on this issue, and should be e-mailed as widely as possible. The concessions to executive power made in the bill compromise who we are and what we fight for.

More disturbing than the content of the bill even, is the fact that a substantial portion of the country either approves it or is willing to tolerate it. This is a time when we need to hear from our moral and spiritual leadership, so that the country can regain its moral compass.

Why has our religious leadership been so silent in the run-up to the passage of this bill?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:29 am
Bob Lombardo:

This bill if approved by the Supreme Court, signals the end of the Democratic Republic of America. America is strong becuase of its system of laws. if we tear the basics from that structure it will topple into a totalitarian state.

After the war, Niemoeller’s condemnation of bystanders to Nazi policies will become a call to early action. His words: “First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist - so I said nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat - so I did nothing. Then they came for the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew - so I did little. Then when they came for me, there was no one left who could stand up for me.”

America should be in the streets by the millions protesting this takeover of our Government by this group of liars who rule by fear alone, with no real direction or leadership. Their list of failures is too long to post. Their list of success’ is 0.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:31 am
Al Fisher:

I just finished reading, in this same issue of the NYTimes, an article on the fact that Iraq has now made it illegal to report anything derogatory of the government. The way this administration is heading we can expect a similar law next year if the Democrats don’t develop some spine and take back at least one house of the Congress. Maybe I’m too hopeful of a Democratic victory. After all, quite a number of Democrats voted for this law. Cowards!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:32 am
Mary La Croce:

Bush and his co-conspiratorshave diminished our standards in those very areas that define us as a nation to be emulated. It’s absolutely disturbing to think that these men will be in power for another two and a half years. They have wreaked havoc on our institutions, on political discourse, and on the future of this country. Will we stand up to this onslaught come election day?

If not, we deserve to be spectators at the fall of the great ideals of this nation. Bush should be impeached.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:36 am
Sue Newman:

It was very necessary to pass this bill. If the President thinks this is
needed I will go along with it because he knows more of what is going on
than any voter. I also believe that the media and dems have made it much harder for us to win this war.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:40 am
Ken McGee:

The Geneva Convention is soooo—-”Old America.”

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:44 am
Joe:

The idea that torture works is directly opposed to the traditional wisdom gained from days when such barbarity was common place in western nations. Such treatment gave rise to a movement that changed the world.

Do we forget that the Christian Cross is THE symbol of ROMAN torture tactics and brutality?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:44 am
John Larson:

This bill for terrorists trials is again stepping on the USA way of law and everytime Bush does something he lowers our esteem farther.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:46 am
Rodney Cole:

The passage of a bill like this is entirely counterproductive and uncalled for. In passing this bill the Senate will destroy the rights that we pretend to uphold when we subscribe to such a bill. The “terrorists” have won…American freedoms are destroyed. The only winners are a repressive administration.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:49 am
Roger Vaughan:

That the detainee bill was passed, even with the modifications wrought by McCain, Warner et al., is shocking to me. After all the documented evidence about innocent people who have been arrested and tortured, it boggles the mind that our Congress would pass any bill that leaves so much decision making in the hands of this outrageously misguided administration. Doesn’t our Congress know who GWB and his cronies are by now? What will it take to open the eyes of our elected officials? One of their close relatives being sent off to be tortured at a CIA prison overseas? The Bush administration’s pre-emptive venture into Iraq and the resulting mess has given terrorism an enormous boost. Now the head of Civil Rights is on the block. The detainee bill is one more nail in the coffin of Democracy that is being ravaged on a daily basis. One thing that’s always puzzled me about terrorists is the nature of their goal. What are they trying to accomplish? These days I have to ask the same question about the Bush administration.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:54 am
brenda spencer:

Hidden deep in this bill is amnesty for the Bush administration for the atrocities they committed before now.Thats why Bush pushed this so hard. How good does this make them look? The word COWARD comes to my mind.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:55 am
Fred Carlson:

Are we at War or are we sitting on a hill side listening to a parable from the Sermon on the Mount.

Maybe we should be in the Temple throwing over tables!

fred carlson

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:56 am
etienne perret:

Why do our representative in government not understand this new law eliminating the rules of habeas corpus for non Us citizens?
Do they not think that other countries will feel comfortable following our lead?
Do they not realize that US citizens wil now be vulnerable to indeffinite detention in foreign jails?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:59 am
Pat Bean:

America needs to take the high road and treat others the way we would want any American arrested in another company treated. Our legal system is part of what this country stands for. I believe that by allowing everyone these same rights we will actually be saving lives in the long run. Our enemies will have less fuel to war with us and fewer recruits may want to join their ranks. In the past we have condemned countries for doing exactly what Cheney and our president want us to do. I am thinking that if we continue along this path someday we may face accusations of war crimes against humanity. And rightly so. I’m 67 years old and I hate to see the things that made this country great crumble before my eyes. Some things in life are worth a risk.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 8:59 am
Pam:

For those of you who support this bill (luckily not many here, but that’s the NY Times readership, I suppose), have you no concern for the people who are wrongfully apprehended and tortured? This is not a hypothetical; we have an actual case, that of Maher Arar, who is living proof that such a thing has happened. Do you honestly believe that a man’s life, any man’s life, is forfeit to the cause of our safety?

And this is not to mention the fact that this bill will serve as a perfect recruiting tool for terrorist organizations. I do not believe America is an evil country, but I have no doubt that for Arabs, this bill will be an indication that it is, and people sitting on the fence will now jump down on the side of terrorists. Because in their eyes, we are no longer harbingers of freedom. In their eyes, we have become the terrorists.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:00 am
I. I. Yikes:

The fanatical terrorists are inhuman. They have no rights. We are in a war against them where “some of” our sons and daughters are at risk, as is our homeland. We have an obligation to obtain information by whatever means required to support our troops. When you go after pigs you have to go into the pig sty. The Marines who fought in the Pacific theatre in WWII beat a savage enemy by giving their tactics right back to them and then some.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:04 am
Gene Sidore:

Bush ignores the constitution in every way. Handling of detainees is just an example. There is no way in which I can be assured his minions will not brand me an enemy combatant and lock me away with no recourse.

Bush should be impeached to show that the American people explicitly reject all his illegal and criminal actions.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:06 am
Ane Hanley:

This bill is dreadful. When my husband was a POW in WW2 in Germany, he didn’t get much to eat except Red Cross parcels because the US had signed the Geneva Convention. All he was asked when he was shot down was name, rank and serial number. We are making ourselves worse than the Nazis by having Guantanamo and now this bill to make some illegal things legal. This does not bode well for any American POW’s!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:07 am
Richard J. Hoekstra:

If we save ourselves, but destroy everything that made us a great nation in the process, then what have we gained and what have we lost?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:08 am
Peggy Gilges:

I can’t believe the Republicans feel that they’ve accomplished something of which to feel proud. I’m embarrassed by this legislation and feel that most Americans, if they take the time to consider the implications of this, will reject this and the Bush administration’s claim that it must be done for our security. It’s shameful.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:09 am
A. Piner:

It is at this moment, more then any other, that I am ashamed of our country and the individuals that govern it. That anyone who has seen the images that have come out of Abu Gharib could then legalize those very same methods is completely abhorrent to me. That we can place even more power in the hands of a single individual, the president, goes against everything our founding fathers intended. That we place this power in the hands of this president is completely insane and shows that the real values of America have been lost along the way. Has no one seen “V for Vendetta?” Has no one read George Orwell? Don’t people understand that this bill can be used against American citizens? Is there no one who understands that it is better to die in a terrorist attack then for one instant give up our moral and ethical basis as a country? It is wrong to torture people! It is wrong to throw out one of the most important laws (habeus corpus) just to get a better night’s sleep! It is wrong to make an elected president into an elected dictator who has the power to decide, on an individual basis, who is or is not an “enemy combatent! Congratulations Mr. Bush, you have taken another step into making us exactly like them.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:11 am
Walter Horodyski:

Bush is right. His detainee regulation is a tool. But it’s not intended to aid him or any other president in the wars being waged. This is a well timed political tool designed to bump his popularity among the fools who will vote for republicans and the continued decline of America’s segment of civilization. Sadly, he managed to garner the support of Graham, Warner and the useless Mr. McCain to grandstand the issue into the public limelight for all to see. It was all staged, an entirely political episode in which he is the winner and the nation loses it’s dignity.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:14 am
Bruce:

Because the twin towers were brought down using explosives, I question anything related to the use of the word “Terrorist”, or anything used inconjunction with the 9/11 “Terrorist” attacks, that Bush tries to get through the system. I think we are very gullible because after five years we don’t see, we don’t want to question the man.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:15 am
elaine komorowski:

SHAME SHAME…SHAMEFUL! Obviously Senator Warner has forgotten history enough to dismiss armies like that of our own colonial times (largely un-uniformed) or that of the french resistance fighters in WWII as “terrorists” and not worthy of the basic rights that organized “uniformed” armies are due. STUPID, SHORT-SIGHTED SENATORS! This administation and those who blindly support it have made me ashamed to be an american.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:15 am
w.dougherty:

It is an embarassment to me and to this country. There will be a price for this colossal stupidity.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:16 am
Nigel:

Even King George recognized the value of Habeas Corpus in the 1700s. But America’s King George is unwilling to offer others even the right to face their accusers. Being allowed to face one’s accusers and see evidence leading to a charge is not a priviledge, it is a basic human right. This isn’t a Replican/Democrat issue! It is a moral issue!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:19 am
Robert Curtis:

This is not a necessary tool. It is a victory for our enemies. It is a destruction
of our country greater than could be achieved by any bomb or military attack.
9/28/06 should be remembered as the day the terrorists won the war. My last
hope is that the courts will not tolerate this abuse my the executive and
legislative branches. I hope we will have Isaac Newton to thank for our idea
of a balance of power. This bill is an abomination. It violates all that we should
hold sacred.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:20 am
Bill Lowe:

We have a President that has reportedly said the Constitution is just a Damn piece of Paper. During his term in office he has repeatability demonstrated that he believes he is above the Constitution & Laws.

I think it should be obvious to all informed citizens that we no longer have a government by the people for the people but a government of the Rich & Corrupt for the Rich & Corrupt. Probably never in our history have we faced such perilous times to this country, not from external enemies but the enemies within.

But to be fair either party cares about the Citizens, or the future of this Nation. All Politicians of both parties put their selves First, Party next, Lobbyist next. Both parties focus is on raising money for their next political campaign & few if any allow what’s best for this Nation & its Citizens to stand in their way of getting money for their next series of attack ads.

During the last 20 years this country has experience the greatest invasion in the History of the world. Either the Politicians or the Citizens have demanded that Article IV Section IV of the Constitution or ours Laws be enforced! The detainee & terrorist policy is just one more example of the political disdain & diminishment of our Constitution & Laws.

When both American Citizens & the Politicians start picking & choosing which parts of the Constitution & Laws are abided by & enforced then both the Citizens & Politicians are refuting everything that made us a great Nation.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:21 am
Ding:

Too much reaction about the rights of individuals, remember these are enemy combatants, and lot of us is have the wrong pretense that when you let them go they will go home and become a law abiding citizens. We need to protect our own turf and don’t let anybody take that tools away from us. Put these in your brains “they are there because they want to kill every one of us”. If there is another attack here in this country, I hope all these so called civil rights liberty groups can still say what they are saying now. Damn if you do and damn if you dont.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:22 am
Civil:

Giving any president the ability to throw somebody into jail, forever, without hope of pleading their case in front of a neutral third party (Supreme Court) used to be unAmerican. Even Kings haven’t had that power for 800 years (since the Magna Carta).

What the Congress has done is repudiate of the separation of powers doctrine and basic Constitutional liberties. This is a sad day for America.

Has the War Crimes Act been changed so War Crimes committed while it was in effect are no longer war crimes (this had been one of the provisions of the bill but I don’t know if it was passed)?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:23 am
Walt Schweizer:

For a European, it is very encouraging to see that 99 percent of the reactions condemn Bush and Congress for making U.S.A. even more incredible in the rest of the world.
Should, however, the Republican majority stay after the November elections, the image of the whole of U.S.A. will be even more damaged.
In November, the world will watch where democracy in America really stands.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:25 am
Susan Watt:

Your detainee bill now plants your country back in the 12th century. My understanding of the law is “innocent until proven guilty” and yet you call all detainees in Cuba “terrorists” without ever proving it. You should all be ashamed of your government and work hard to get back to a civilized state.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:33 am
Marie Kane:

I echo the cry of Ms Malloy # 20–
Where ARE the Democrats, in this travesty and betrayal of all that this country believes in and represents? We need a voice–sane, rational, and yet vociferous–to stand and denounce what George Bush and his henchmen in Congress have accomplished– all in the name of fear.
If one dares to object to the removal of habeaus corpus and the legalization of torture, he or she is branded ’soft on terror’ or even ’someone who does not love this country.’
Is this nor similar to the Salem Witch trials? Or Joseph McCarthy’s bullish tirade again Communists? Those vendettas succeeded because of irrational fear foisted on American citizens also. But, someone has to do something–or what, then, have we become? The very country that our ‘enemies’ would wish us to be.
The President and Congress’s version of the American Constitution, I imagine, would shock the very men who wrote it and were willing to give their very lives to protect it.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:37 am
Catherine:

I don’t know yet what my decision is on this bill; I do know that President Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the Civil War and also shut down newspapers he regarded as treasonous. I know that the British Diplock courts in Northern Ireland sent innocent people to jail requiring only the testimony of one person and after police and army utilized these same torture techniques. Britain was found guilty of torture by the European Court of Human Rights. I also know that I and many, many others do not care a fig what Europe thinks of us, as it is busy wimping out on its own heritage, and I begin to wonder why we bothered helping them out of two wars.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:43 am
Sally Hawkridge:

Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Gary Ridgeway. All disgusting, frightening, dangerous, monstrous human beings. All successfully and legally prosecuted under our beautiful system with all of its rights and protections, as crafted by the Founding Fathers and refined over the last 217 years.

What makes a terrorist better or worse than any of these? Is it somehow worse to die at the hands of an al-Qaeda operative than the Son of Sam or a drug lord?

Should any of my loved ones ever be slain by the hand of another, I would feel no satisfaction if their killer were prosecuted by any unjust, improper, or unfair means. The system that was good enough for Timothy McVeigh and Ramsey Yusuf is still good enough for all of us after all these years.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:44 am
robert myers:

No, the detainee bill is not needed. Present laws, properly enforced have sufficed world wars and previous events that are similar.
A government that has yet to secure it’s own borders shoul revisit it’s proirities. The job of government is to protect the citizens and the nation and to better the life of all the residents. Perhaps this has been forgotton.
Will “terror” ever be defined?
This is not a needed bill it is a diversion from the priority of getting the criminals who did these deeds off the streets.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:47 am
Michael Allen:

All that needs to be said is contained in the Constitution of the United States. The knowledge that these words were written to and for American citizens should not blind us to the fact that the principles behind the words are applicable to all men as basic human rights - true justice knows neither borders nor birthright. It is a sorry day when a worthless congress of ciphers kow-tows to the ignorant, arrogant ass who described the Constitution as “just a goddamn piece of paper.” Is anyone so foolish as to think they are immune from this law, that their citizenship will protect them should they fall afoul of the administration? The Great Decider will decide what rights, if any, you have; if you think otherwise, you are a fool.

Impeachment and imprisonment, domestically for high crimes against the American people and internationally for crimes against humanity, are called for. I fervently pray that these things both come to pass.

Consider, please, the following:

ARTICLE IV: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated……..

ARTICLE V: No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury………..nor be deprived of life, liberty or property, without due process of law.

ARTICLE VI: In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed……and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:48 am
Roy Schaetzel:

So, America is denying its true self! A black day! The Constitution is bleeding! What nonsense. Since 9/11/06, America lives in a different world with a different enemy. Grow up. Free yourself of your politicial biases. If Lincoln could understand the necessity of suspension of habeas corpus, perhaps you may allow common sense to enter your thought process. The real problem is the errant Supreme Court decision which, without legal basis, legitimized terrrorists by placing them under the Geneva Conventions and forced the Congress to go where appeasing jurists dared not go. The Court blinked and exchanged legality for social desire, leaving the country in a legal lurch - an abject neglect of its position and purpose in our system of government.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:49 am
Don Brown:

It is so sad to see such a noble country brought so low. State sponsored terrorism, the CIA, illegal and unnecessary wars, an incredibly corrupt “democratic” political process and now this legalized torture. Is this the democracy you are trying to spread around the world? The U.S. is the real axis of evil along with its subjugated “coalition” of Britain, Australia and now most distressing, Canada. Do you wonder why the rest of the world hates you?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:54 am
Jim Kellock:

This administration and congress are doing in plain view what Americans have previously denounced as evil repression of rights when done by “shadowy” regimes elsewhere, yet we sit back and watch their actions as if they were deciding how to schedule trash pickups or how long we should allow our grass to grow.

Our laws are supposed to offer protection from the crimes of other people and also from the excesses of government, but in posturing to increase the former, government is eviscerating the latter as we watch.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:54 am
lawrence larkin:

america is not the america that I have always. loved. We cannot afford not to abuse prisoners in the name of our own freedom. right now we are LOst. L feel asamed of our country.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:55 am
Steve Allen:

It is definitely a threat to our rights as citizens. It smacks of Fascism which seems to be creeping into our federal government under the current administration.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:58 am
John Moffett:

Yesterday, in an act of utter disdain and contempt for freedom and our Constitution, the U.S. Senate voted to limit human rights in the United States. Almost all Republicans were joined by a handful of Democrats to vote away many of the freedoms that President Bush has claimed we are fighting for. In addition to secret trials for military detainees, the bill retroactively excuses American officials who have perpetrated torture on prisoners, and permits continued torture of prisoners in US custody. What has happened to “innocent until proven guilty”? Now it becomes “tortured until proven innocent”.

But Bush does not see the provisions as sanctioning torture - much like a Soviet style dictator he simply perceives torture as providing “the necessary tools” to fight an ill-defined enemy. A more heartless perception could not be imagined.

As the Bush administration frantically scrambles to eliminate hard-won freedoms here in the US, their claims that we are fighting overseas for “freedom” rings ever more hollow. As the administration blurs the lines between democracy and totalitarianism, it becomes ever more evident that the United States has lost its moral basis, as well as the respect of the civilized world.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 9:59 am
Monte Brown:

Emperor Bush and his imperialistic right wing cronies want to do away with the 4th Amendment. “With catlike treads upon the gray they steal”-Gilbert and Sullivan. Black people account for half the prison population in the United States and they are only 12.5 percent of the total population. I believe part of the reason is that many poor blacks, who receive the most scrutiny by law enforcement (especially black men) are unaware of their rights under the 4th Amendment, and because they are under represented in court, not because they are inherently proned to criminal activity. This detainee bill, which overlooks habeas corpus is just another way of imposing on peoples freedom from unlawful search and seizure. They want to catch people “riding dirty” as that rapper said. There is no war on terror. The right wing is waging war on the middle classed and poor, especially minorities. They are using that terror crap as a mask.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:01 am
Brian:

How may people posting comments here have actually read the Military Commissions Act of 2006 from beginning to end?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:03 am
Matt:

I am an American who has lives and works in Vietnam. From time to time, the topic of the Vietnam War arises in conversation. “Are Americans remorseful for the destruction and devastation they inflicted on our country? If so, then why were Americans so easily led into another devasting conflict in Iraq based on fabrications and falsehoods?” I am often at a loss for words. As an American abroad, I try to be a cultural ambassador and highlight America’s most positive and transcendant aspects, namely our democratic system. But lately, it has been difficult to paint a positive portrait our our country in earnest. When we tolerate torture, detain those suspected of terrorist acts without allowing them to challenge their detention, and allow egregious abuses of executive power, we are in principle no different from the regimes in this part of the world. In doing so, we also deflate courage, hope, and resolve of those who do not live in democratic societies- those who so eagerly yearn for democracy and take selfless risks to advocate for it.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:03 am
Roger Buzzard:

The American tradition rooted in English common law extending to the Magna Carta is under attack. Due process and the rule of law are critical components of democratic government. What do have to offer those peoples searching for a model of democratic/constitutional government if these fundamental principles are compromised by the country pretending to believe in democracy and freedom from arbitrary, totalitarian regimes? What is the Unites States defending if not its fundamental values?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:10 am
Clyde Paige:

The Republican’s and 12 cowardly democrat’s just sold our country down the drain.This is one step closer to America becomming a dictatorship as Bush/Cheney and the neocon’s want it.Yesterday was one of the darkest days in our history. The awol coward Bush is out now calling we Truman Democrat’s cut and run.I served in WWII and one of my Sons served in the Air Force. Bush is the one who cut and ran not us. To give power of life and death to an inept failure like Bush is a crime against the United States.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:11 am
Bill:

Islam is drawing the U.S. into playing their game, as Congress creates law that equates to the tyrannical laws of Islam. We have lost a sense for taking pride in and standing up for the laws we created, as we escaped the tyranny of King George III.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:14 am
kristinar:

Military professionals agree that information gained from torture is questionable and this should be obvious to anyone with common sense. Of course people will say anything to end torture and verifification of information comes only very much later at best so this can never be fully tested.
The people pushing for this legislation are playing war games with other peoples lives and have no personal knowledge of the realities of war and apparently no respect for human life. The delusion that we are bringing democracy to Iraq is rarely mentioned any more because the Iraqi government bears no resemblance to democracy whatsoever. There are laws against free speech newly instituted. Another thing, who do you think the insurgents are? Apply a little common sense and you will see that the insurgents are really all fighting age men capable of defending their homeland and we are killing them all off. Of course they are trying to get rid of the occupying force in their country!!! Who wouldn’t??? If we were invaded, we would be the “insurgents”.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:15 am
Jeff Bray:

This is a letter I wrote to my Senator.

Dear Senator Johnson:

I am very upset that you voted for the measure on Thursday dealing with the interrogations and trials of terrorism suspects. Not allowing habeas corpus, even to terrorists, has to be one of the most nefarious decisions ever made by the Senate. You have contributed in making the United States the pariah of the world. The Senate has undermined our position as a beacon of freedom and fairness. Surely you know that this bill only adds to the President’s already unprecedented powers, and that he and his administration have already illegally abused the powers they already have. It is hardly to be believed that you - a senator I have always respected - should stoop so low as to vote in favor of such a despicable, illegal, and in the sights of history, shameful bill. We will all pay dearly for what has happened this week. Please explain to me why you voted for it. Surely you have some strategy to it, otherwise I can’t imagine what you were thinking.

Jeff Bray
Sioux Falls

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:19 am
Phyllis Sato:

It is clear to me that the motivation for bringing this bill now was with an eye to the mid-term elections. Because of the haste, it was impossible to fully digest the bill and negotiations on the language were too rushed. Furthermore, it is another example of a bill designed by the majority party without any attempt to incorporate minority views. Unfortunately it also doesn’t incorporate basic American values.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:20 am
Ruud Schouw:

Being European, I’d like to share my views on this subject, as we are still part of the ‘coalition of the willing’, for whatever that’s worth;
America as a country, is rapidly losing the last vestiges of respect from it’s traditional allies, on which it could once safely rely.
This has come about in record time and, in my opinion, is the logical result of passing acts such as the one discussed here, but also by
1) the seeming willingness of a large part of the American population to let others do their thinking for them, and then act surprised when it discovers that their leaders use fearmongering and anything but the whole truth to make bad policies even worse;
2) the zeal with which the media silences any form of critique of the Bush administration by branding it traitorous, terrorist enabling, or at the very least partisan, thereby reducing any form of political debate to a shouting match;
3) the baseness of the actual political debate, where getting the actual facts is nearly impossible (as is obvious to anyone who regularly compares mainstream American newspaper coverage to their European counterparts), and reasonable, non-partisan analysis of said facts is even harder to come by. Spin seems to rule all.
4) and finally, the shameless “the end jusitifies the means” attitudes towards established rights and values, coupled with the incredible lack of truthfullness that most senior members of the current administration display towards their own population, their European allies, and the other nations of the world.
I can only hope that at some point in the future things will improve, but from this side of the Atlantic, the current American government and state of affairs are a sad spectacle to behold. Where once your country set an example to follow, it now does exactly the opposite.
R. Schouw, the Netherlands

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:22 am
Rita C. Tobin:

The detainee bill is yet another step by the Bush administration to curtail fundamental civl liberaties under the cloak of ending terrorism. Not only does the bill disembowel the Geneva Conventions, whose purpose was to prevent the very practices authorized by the bill, but the ability of the Administration — any Administration — under the bill to declare anyone, including an American citizen, an “enemy combatent” and hold that person indefinitely without trial, or right of habeas corpus, virtually licenses the Administration to “disappear”, not merely likely terrorists, but also anyone of whom it chooses to get rid. We are witnessing the last days of democracy in the U.S., voted down by the very elected officials whose duty is to protect democracy, and administered by “Big Brother George,” a smiley face fronting for Cheney, Rumsfeld and the right wing, spouting propaganda, slogans and disinformation. Are people dumb enough to let this tragedy occur? Apparently — or so Rove and his buddies have determined — say “terrorism” and “9/11) and Americans will close their eyes to anything, including their own future and the future of their children.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:25 am
lookingglass:

The Bush adminstration has sunk to a new low with its drastic, unilateral, reinterpretation of the Geneva Convention advanced through the so-called detainee bill that it is pushing through Congress. Its time to leave this failed experiment in democracy to emigrate to nations that advance human rights. The United States now seems bent on torturing those who oppose its militaristic foreign policy and its gross misadventures abroad, with no sign that it understands that abandonment of its underlying principles signifies the end of this once-great nation and renders laughable its assertion that it has engaged in the Iraq war to advance democracy.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:29 am
Juliane:

This bill does nothing to facilitate “winning the war on terror”. The recently released NIE confirms that torture and the lack of due process have exponentially increased the number of terrorists and terrorist incidents.
The specious concept of american exceptionalism, if America tortures it is not touture, must be eviscerated if we are ever to regain the mantle of a civilized nation.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:31 am
michael lozano:

all bills to the american people should be explained as to what exactly they contain…i do believe these goes beyond the necesary to protect us

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:32 am
Roger Duronio:

Just another instance of incompetence. Our 1993 laws enabled the capture and imprisonment of those who attacked the World Trade center. We needed no new laws. Bush and company couldn’t use the laws that exist. Why? Incompetent! And without new laws the President’s power could not grow. That is the whole idea. King George. For the good of the people. With me or against me. I’m against. A gigantic tyrant is much worse than a petty tyrant. The tyrant factor in Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Gonzales, is, to be frank, Gigantic.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:33 am
Stephen Heller:

All is lost.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:34 am
Paul R. Cooper:

Many previous comments illustrate the frustration many of us have with finding the worlds to express our indignation at the bill’s abuse of our values, our system of government, our hopes for a less savage world. I am more worried about creating a savage America than the few thousand savages abroad.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:36 am
Joe Lane:

We’ve now heard from the Master of the ole “Cut & Run” brigade himself. Never showed up for his gentleman’s C’s at Yale, never showed up for his duty roster with the Texas National Guard, never showed up for any of the issues of his day - just “working too hard” at his frat parties, alcohol and drugs to bother with anything except coasting along on his family money and contacts. Now this clown, this fraud, this phony, has the gaul to critize those of us who don’t share his enthusiasm to offer up more of our best people and treasure on the altar of his failed policies and overpreened ego. It will take our nation generations to recover the stature we enjoyed in the world before this egotist became President. Can no one rid us of this meddlesome fool?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:38 am
Tuzoner Native:

I think it’s safe to conclude this is the beginning of our end courtesy of Senators McCain, Warner, and Graham. You did your country proud by agreeing to the lowest common denominator. Oh… and God Bless America.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:39 am
Jeunes:

We are in a Kafkaesque game with a sadistic, faith-driven zealot who was elected by a U.S. breadbasket full of sadistic, faith-driven zealots. Their orgasms arise from seeing their self-appointed enemies in the throes of torture and death agonies.

To hem, haw, dance around, piddle with, or in any way honor this maniacal frenzy with “discussion” is wasted effort. If there is a god, and this god allows such men as W to rise to power, then it’s clearly useless to pray for better times or better leaders.

What is the old saw about “A country gets the leaders it deserves”?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:41 am
Anagadir:

@Brian: “How may people posting comments here have actually read the Military Commissions Act of 2006 from beginning to end?”

Brian don’t try to be a referee without even holding a whissle. Please summarize this Act to show you’ve read it and then give us your opinion. Mine is that this new “law” that Bush, et all, want to pass would be a major step backwards in Western Civilization - and eventually would make us the loosers - for a long time to come. Hitler tried but wasn’t very successful - and cost Germany an arm and a leg. The USA has to stick with present USA laws and present interpretation of Geneva Convention, integrate more with other Western Countries in its approach to tackle terrorism, bin Laden characters (there will be many more to come), etc. We (USA) certainly have to be more inventive and forward looking in understanding the terrorist approach. Sofar, especially in Iraq, we have reacted - not acted. Perhaps our work in Afghanistan with help from NATO allows us to be a bit more creative and forward thinking. Actually, I believe Rumsfeld has these skills but needs more capable experts - both above and below him and who understand what this Geneva Convention is all about. He will listen. Bush won’t (is dangerous).

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:41 am
jessica lucas:

What happened to our justice system? I understand how terrrible an act war is and that, of course, is what 911 was, an act of war. But to bury thousands of people in Cuba without due process is cruel and unusual pusnishment, for crimes that may never have been committed. How can we as a civilized nation support that kind govermental attitude?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:42 am
thu hoang:

I keep wondering who these 40% are that approves of the way Bush & his cabinet are raping this country. This bill is yet another offense to the nation’s dignity & our American moral rectitude. This is an end run; Bush had lost in the Federal court system so he will now deny detainees the right to access the Federal court system. Whatever happened to “ALL men are created equal … with certain INALIENABLE rights”? The argument that by allowing detainees access will bog down our Federal court system is false and misleading. This is simply Bush not trusting the judges themselves to decide what should or should not be heard in their own courtrooms.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:42 am
Miguel:

I´m not north-american neither do I live in the US. I believe the US should get tougher on dealing with terrorists.

The end is not in question, it´s always the how. Suspending the writ of habeas corpus would make the US a dictatorial regime, where the government´s accusation towards someone becomes the last word. If the accused is a true terrorist, it´s an excellent policy. But who decides whose a ‘real’ terrorist is the frightening aspect. This person or institution deciding becomes God, unquestionably. And should he dislike anyone for who knows what, he could do infinite damage to any one, north-american or foreign national. Who could possibly hand all that power to any institution. Plus, it would do away with all the freedom doctrine (locke, rousseau, hobbes) of the founding fathers. But it is a new century, and some laws need to be found to fairly persecute these unpeople–the terrorists. The devil´s in the details.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:46 am
Alan:

From what I was taught in school and by which I have always believed, this bill is incompatible with the U.S. Constitution. It’s hard to believe we have only 34 Senators willing to stand by the constitution. How long will we let this so called “war-on-terror” destroy that which it says is trying to protect.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:52 am
smarcy:

We are at war and our laws should reflect that. We can’t possibly give Miranda warnings to foreign combatants, can we?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:52 am
shane cullen:

Uuuuhh, does anyone remember 9-11???? I do not care what the CIA or whoever do to get information about an attack on us or any of our allies. I would hope that my government, no matter what admin., would do whatever it took to defend us.Plus the fact these terrorist are not a state sponsored army and do not wear a uniform, so from my understanding they should not fall under the Geneva convention. They do not care if your a Republican or a Democrat.. all they know is that you are not a MUSLIM or not MUSLIM enough and you should die.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:53 am
Karly Beckley:

I felt great shame to be an American when I heard the results of the Senate’s vote on this bill yesterday. Yes, there are terrorists out there who hate us. But the terrorists are not the only ones who hate us these days - everyone in the world hates us. They hate us because this corrupt government of ours passes laws allowing torture without question of courts, because George W Bush sees himself as supreme ruler of the entire world. Oh, how sad to see this great country of ours destroyed by greed, corruption and the desire for power and money. I voted for George W Bush in 2000 and again in 2004. I can never, ever forgive myself…

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:54 am
John J. Sullivan:

This only reinforces the belief around the world that we-the U.S.-only care for our own even though we-the goverment-claims that we care for the whole world

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:54 am
Bill Moss:

Yes, it was necessary.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:56 am
Luis Fernando Gutierrez:

The senate’s actions reflect how The Carlyle Group and other decadent allies for Mr. Bush are afraid of loosing power. When will America rise against a bunch of criminals whose only purpose in life is world domination, at any cost? You already lost freedom of speech, now Americans are loosing the foundations of your Constitution, which basically is freedom for every individual.
Seen from outside, the world just trembles every time Mr. Bush speaks,and not because of his evident lack of intelligence, but for the consequences to everybody in the planet.It’s so surreal how White House leaders, and the media in general try to maintain demented minds such as Wolfowitz, Chaney, Rice and, of course, Baby Bush.
Hopefuly Americans will someday remember their duty to defend basic human rights, and will awake from their now permanent TV hypnosis, because now the Us is only fighting “terrorism” with terrorism against muslim radicals. But it could spread to non-muslim states, and if Mr. Bush administration has achieved a worldwide notion that USA is the world’s biggest threat, let’s not make it real…

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 10:58 am
Jack Kilcullen:

It’s really simple. Look at the State of Illinois, whose governor put a moratorium on executions because of the number of DNA-exonerated individuals convicted by our own judicial system and you can’t escape the conclusion that we imprison exponentially more innocent people in Guantanomo and the secret prisons. It’s an American Gulag we have created.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:00 am
sullu2004:

is there any deffrence left between third world country under a dictator and america??

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:05 am
Concerned:

I went to write to my Senator about my dismay and on the Senate web site one can easily access the Bill of Rights and there I found the following… “The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.”

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:06 am
wstander:

In his address to the joint session of Congress in September 2001 Bush said that the reason the Terrorists were waging war on the US was because “They hate our freedoms.” With the passage of this legislation removing or limiting many of those freedoms, there will be less reason for the Terrorists to hate the US. I consider this simply the first step in e Bush’s brilliant strategy: No freedoms- No attacks- Voila, victory in the War on Terror.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:09 am
John H.:

I fail to see why the President should be dickering with Congress over these matters.

The President’s inherent authority in times of war are more than adequate to facillitate the interrogation of any enemy combatant who fails to identify himself as such.

N.B. For those inclined to argue that our enemy has rights under the Geneva Convention; our enemy’s failure to engage us openly and honestly, in uniform and under color of authority, is precisely why the protections of the Geneva Convention, expressly by its terms, do not apply here.

As for the relevancy of recent Supreme Court rulings, I am reminded of the quote attributed to Andrew Jackson; “John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!”

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:11 am
Derek Gregory:

Isuspect that Bush insisted on these measures not because he (or anyone else) “needs” them — even he surely knows how inhuman, indefensible and counterproductive they are — but because they were taken away from him by the Supreme Court, and like any other petulant, swaggering little bully-boy he is determined to have his own way. The United Shame of America.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:15 am
Thomas A. Vento:

I don’t think the combatants that are trying to kill us deserve the rights that US citizens have. I support the bill.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:16 am
Bill:

Folks, anyone who thinks this bill isn’t Constitutional needs to read the Constitution. When’s the last time you read it? Go to Findlaw.com, read it. For most of the people on this blog, “unconstitutional” seems to be a mere epithet that means “I do not like this thing.” Please bring the meaning back to the word.

The President and the politicians of any party, folks, are not the enemy. The enemy is a group of terrorists that passionately hates everything you care about: religious freedom; rationalism; women’s rights; medical science; minority rights; voting; technological progress; even population control and the environment. They want to kill you. They are bizarre, messianic misogynists, and while they are not rational in the way I use that word, they are committed and frequently very smart. You’d understand if you had met them, as I have. They are not like ordinarily criminals, whom society wants to catch and reform. The price to letting them go free over legal technicalities will be measured in bodies, quite likely (those of you who live in New York) yours. Yes, the tribunal system increases the likelihood of false positives (imprisonment of non-terrorists) but the cost of false negatives (freeing terrorists to kill again) is so high that the cost-benefit fulcrum has shifted, and we cannot afford as a society to give them the incredible level of rights accorded to U.S. citizen ordinary criminal suspects. Debate the specifics of this bill if you wish, and I agree that the U.S. needs to pay attention to the image of these tribunals as well as their substance. But recognize that the tribunals actually give suspected terrorists far greater “rights” than criminal defendants in most, and perhaps all, European countries. The idea that the U.S. criminal system as it exists in 2006 is the only way to prosecute anyone, for anything, anywhere, including a suspected foreign terrorist? That’s ahistorical and a recipe, in this case, for horrible bloodshed.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:18 am
Todd Castro:

Bush is what you call a fabian as with his daddy and B. Cinton. A fabian is an indiviual that conquers a country a little piece at a time and in this case ,conquering the American people for the start up of the NEW WORLD ORDER as stated in Revelations. the private central bankers ( owtlawed bt the constitution ) continues with these men in charge.The USA is headed down and it’s not coming back. The private bankers are totally in charge and the NWO is around the corner.The WTC destruction was planned and executed on schedule like pearl harbor , two steps forward one step back until it’s completed. Want to know more then call1-800-516-8736 an order this 587 page knowledge of the future ,all referenced. ( the history of God’s people and the coming NEW WORLD ORDER…. Todd

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:23 am
Thomas Deeds:

I am appalled. Thomas Jefferson would roll over in his grave and call for a revolution. Anyone can now be deemed an “enemy combatant” by King George, flown off to a secret prison, not be charged with a crime, not be allowed to see the evidence against him, be tortured and the key thrown away. This policy is a mirror image of Kafka’s story “The Penal Colony.” American citizens, this could be YOU! Quaking in our boots, are we now to stoop to the level of terrorists ourselves? This administration has put a gun to human rights, cast America as the hypocritical bully for the indefinite future. As my now deceased father would say, “THROW THE BUMS OUT!”

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:24 am
Daniel:

It is silly to even suggest that this is needed against terrorism. In the first place, the history of this administration has shown that the vast majority of the so-called terrorists arrested have nothing at all to do with terrorism. This includes the people at Guantanamo, the various camps in Afghanistan, Abu Ghraib, the thousands of immigrants arrested after 9/11, and the people arrested piecemeal since then. Without habeus corpus and with this law allowing Bush to imprison anyone he wants to for as long as he wants to there is no way that they will ever be released.

Second, the bill itself is an act of terror designed to intimidate anyone who would object to Bush administration “policy.” Despite what numerous “chachalacas” (a bird found in the southwest and northern Mexico noted for making lots of noise) say, you don’t fight fire with fire. You fight it with water. Ask any fireman.

Third, giving the Bush administration carte blanche to torture and imprison people with no recourse to a valid legal system is exactly what the murderers in the Argentine and Chilean militaries did to protect themselves from the consequences of their own viciousness. Fortunately in those cases, many of the “amnesty” laws have been struck down. One can only hope that the same will eventually happen in the US before the perpetrators of what can only be called a totalitarian police state are too old to be brought to justice.

Finally, the world is aghast at what our “democracy” has done. No longer are we regarded as an example of what other nations should aspire to, but rather an example of what other nations need to avoid. We have lost any hope of having close relations with other Western countries, the only real hope of combating terrorism, because now they will regard us simply as a pariah similar to Stalin’s Russia or Hitler’s Germany. We are now something unpleasant that they have to deal with, but at a distance, sort of like fresh dog diarrhea on the carpet. When a country like Venezuela has more human rights being practiced than we do, we are in a bad state and need to change course.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:24 am
Franklin:

Of course it is necessary that we do exactly what terrorists are fighting for. They want us to abandon our principles and change our way of life to reflect their ideals. Authorizing endless detentions, kangaroo courts, torture… all fits with the fundamentalist worldview.

FDR did not ask congress to authorize torture or kangaroo courts in combating two of the most organized and potent military threats the earth had yet witnesses. Our current resident is so feeble minded that the only thing he can think of to fight a bunch of crazed religious fanatics operating out of caves with cell phones is to throw away a millenium of civilization, trash the constitution and reject the founding principles of our great nation.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:25 am
Ruth:

I am deeply saddened that the Senate has passed this bill.
Why the Republican leadership has set its sights on dismantling the important freedoms our founders set forth is beyond belief.
Despotism has taken hold in American, and I fear for all of us. If we do not treat terrorism suspects with dignity, each of us, safe in our homes, is one presidential phone call away from that same treatment.
Can’t happen here? I wonder what Germany’s propserous middle classes felt as they saw Jewish freedoms being curtailed. Hitler won’t kill them, he won’t target other inconvenient minorities like Catholics and gypsies.
No, to view a terrorism suspect as beyond human dignity is to degrade all of our dignity. Try them, convict them and imprison them. Battle with them on whatever battlefield you find them. But waterboarding? Torture? It is evil itself. That is assuming these “suspects” are actually guilty. What of the innocent ones? God help us.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:26 am
Garee:

A very simple concept is at work here. The idea of a “slippery slope” should ring in everyone’s head. This bill is one more step toward the end of America as we dreamed of it when we were growing up.
Our naivette has caused us to stand on the sidelines while forces that we could have once easily controlled assumed unassailable power.
Most of my generation was caught up with “other priorities” and we have forgotten to exercise the rights our fathers and mothers fought for in wars gone by.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:30 am
Donney M.:

We have only one option here VOTE VOTE VOTE COME NOV 7TH. It can’t be much clearer now. What are you going to do wait until they create Nazi prison camps.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:31 am
Paul:

This goes to show that we are in a seriuos social decline. It is sad to say that human rights are not amajor concern anymore. GWB is just an impotent, pitiful bufoon who has visions of despotic demigogery.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:31 am
Harlan:

The argument coming from the right misses the entire point, as well as showing a complete misunderstanding of the reason we have things like habeus. The argument made by the right is “we must keep these dangerous people locked up.” Not one person anywhere in any political point of view thinks that dangerous people should be let go. The problem is that we don’t know who is actually dangerous and who is there by mistake. The entire purpose for court challenges and due process is that sometimes people make mistakes. Sometimes people cheat. And sometimes people lie. There is already proof, incontrovertable proof, that one of the “dangerous terrorists” who we sent to Syria for torture was guilty of nothing more than being a computer engineer.
Abandoning all of the trappings of civilization is not a tool to fight terrorists, it is in fact a way to turn us into unprincipled thugs who are no better than the terrorists.

If to defeat evil you become evil, then evil wins.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:34 am
Dr. Raymond Martin:

Denying someone their Civil Rights is unconscionable. We are witnessing the birth of a police state.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:35 am
Anagadir:

One other thing (see my # 143 above). I’ve recently returned from Banda Aceh, Indonesia doing some work on this Tsuname disaster. I’ve been all over the world but this was the first time ever that I didn’t feel confortable, save, respected, well liked - just because everybody there knew I was an American. It was more than intuition and gut-feeling. Just interacting with the local people there said it all.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:37 am
Matt Mahaffey:

I would be happy if the detainee bill was just a “threat to our rights”. At worst, I believe this legislation could lead our country into a democaracy by name and dictatorship in practice. The concept and application of Habeas Corpus is older than our constitution. Habeas Corpus is one of the central pillars of our constitution, our democracy. How can we spread the concept of democracy around the world while violating it’s central tenets here at home? This is the ugliest legislation of hypocrisy that I’ve seen in my brief, 27 year life.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:38 am
Earl E. Bush, Jr.:

I refer you to a statement by Benjamin Franklin that was popular during much of the period of the American Revolution: “They that can give up a little liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” I believe that is as pertinent today as it was in Franklin’s time. The effort to preserve freedom and individual liberties must never be allowed to be diverted in the name of immediacy.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:42 am
Peter Baisley:

While I do not agree with any of the ‘detainee bill’ I cannot disagree with the actual passing of the bill, no matter how misguided it may be. What truely mystifies, is the part of the bill that exhonerates those who have broken the current law. If I am not mistaken,the constitutional separation of powers allows Congress to write the laws, the Judiciary to interpret the law and the Executive to enforce those laws. If laws have been broken, it is not up to Congress to relieve those individuals of their legal responsibility.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:48 am
John:

This law that was just passed is further evidence that US citizens need to get out and vote agianst the current Republican controlled House, Senate and White House. Hopefully the pendulum starts to swing the other way and people will take there blinders off and realize that the greatest threat to us is our own government.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:49 am
john m:

I am paraphrasing a writing from the holocaust. “when they came for the jews, i said nothing, for i was not a jew, when they came for the commnists, i said nothing, because i was not a communist, when they came for the gypsies, again i said nothing, for i was not a gypsy. when they finally came for me i found there was no one left to speak for me.” who decides what terrorist is? If i disagree with Bush, am i a terrorist?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:51 am
Mark Hecht:

Every U.S. Senator and Congressman, even those who voted against it , should be ashamed that this bill was passed.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:52 am
Frank Myers:

This is not a WAR on terror, as I understand war. I think war is “A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties.” (answerw.com) In my opinion we are engaged in a CONFLICT of ideologies. On one side is American democracy. On the other side is radical Islam. The tools of radical Islam are almost exclusively violence. The tools of democracy are much broader and subtler. From answers.com again, democracy is defined as:
1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.
I see nothing in radical Islam that resembles any of these principles.

Of course any nation must meet violence against it with violence. But this form of violence must be measured and taken within the principles of democracy if democracy is to survive and thrive.

9/11 was very traumatic to me and most Americans. In my opinion the violence we returned against Afganistan was an appropriate response and within our democratic principles. We should have gone on and used our strength to encourage a truly democratic nation to emerge there. This would have clearly demonstrated the power and wisdom of democracy.

Instead, this administration for their own selfish reasons abused our collective 9/11 traumas to suspend our democratic principles and declare war on a sovereign, wealthy, and weak Iraq. This detainee bill headed to the president’s desk is just another example of a long string of the anti-democratic actions of this administration.

These actions must stop or we are in serious danger of losing our democracy.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:54 am
David:

We saw the far right of the Republican party arguing with the right side of the party on this trying to make a loss of freedom seem like a good alternative to a loss of a lot of freedom. Where’s the voice of reason? I’m ashamed of this country.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:55 am
Bill Wasson:

Yes, the detainee bill is required. Remember–these are enemy combatants not American citizens. Therefore, our constitutional guarantees do NOT apply to them.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:55 am
Marge Keyishian:

We have not right to torture. We disgrace our nation when we do. And it does not work. We have a wimp for a president. We fought WW 2 & 1 and won without transgressing. Torture does not work AND endangers our own soldiers.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 11:56 am
Len:

Obviously there are a lot of opinions being posted here by people who have NOT been in a war situation. It’s pretty easy to sit back in your comfortable little nest with all your eggs and comment how even our enemies should be afforded the same rights as you are. But if you were forced to leave your comfy little nest to fight a war with Terrorists where your life was at peril, you might change that opinion. It’s really a shame that we ask people to issue opinions on things they know absolutely NOTHING about. I’ve been in a War and I really, really, really hate it when I hear these bleeding liberals say things should be FAIR .. Stick the terrorist in front of you with a gun and we’ll see how fair you are.

The thing I noticed in Vietnam about liberals, when they hestitated in a firefight because of their beliefs, they died very quickly ..

When did we ever get the point in life where our enemies (Terrorist) are given the SAME rights as we are ?

The muslims are correct, American society is SICK !!!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:04 pm
Richard Nosco:

Absolutely not neccessary.A Republican ploy in an attempt to shift the focus from the their Iraqui debacle.Another slight of hand tactic by this administration to frighten Americans into thinking that the Democrats are weak on defense.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:06 pm
Joan Conroy:

I am from Maine and am not at all surprised by the “yea” vote of Sen. Collins and the “not voting” response from Sen. Snowe. They continue to call themselves “moderate republicans” all the while continuing to support the dangerous and extremist views of the Bush administration. Torture is torture, even when it is conducted by loyal and patriotic Americans who are suffering from the silly and false notion of exceptionalism. Durring the 1930’s a majority of Germans were also duped by their leaders into thinking they were exceptional too. Have we learned so little from the lessons of history??? Extremism is any form is never the answer.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:06 pm
Chris:

As a student at Boston College, I am afraid of what future lies ahead for my generation and those behind me. The administration is trying to hang on to power by planting the seed of fear into the public. Anytime their rating goes down, they arrest another “terrorist”, discover a new plot, or give another speech on the war between the two worlds.
Its time for the fear to end. A democracy in fear is not a democracy. Its sad that Congress is acting as a doormat to this tactic, and its time for a change in November.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:06 pm
Hans:

Sinclair Lewis was right:

“When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”

It can happen here.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:07 pm
Marian Santoli:

I am ashamed of the administration, and terrified of the effects of this bill. The members of Congress, so many of who are lawyers, are cowards. We no longer have the right to criticize other countries for human rights violations, we are down in the immoral mud with the rest of them. It is amazing to me that a president who has claimed to be a Christian has traded only in fear and paranioa, lowering us to the level of the terrorists. He has stolen the soul of this country and dishonored our forefathers.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:09 pm
Bret:

For all those who object, I have this to say: Vote Democrat in the upcoming election. When the Democrats take control of the House and the Senate they will revoke everything the President has done to protect Americans. When that happens, don’t come crying to me when we’re attacked again and the President says: See? I told you so.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:09 pm
Larry:

This bill further erodes American’s rights and adds to the world’s diminished view of the U.S. observing the rule of law. I am scared to death of Bush and his cohorts. I pray that this bill will be challenged and sent to the Supreme Court as soon as possible so that it can be declared unconstitutional before any more damage is done.

This is one more Bush step to bring America in line with the terrorist’s goals. One would think he and Bin Laden had met and agreed on changes needed in the U.S. The terrorists are winning with Bush’s policies.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:10 pm
g. arnolfini:

i don’t believe any measures proposed by bush will be effective. the president and his advisors have shown themselves to be highly incompetent. based on recent intelligence reports, it appears they are not winning the ‘war on terror’. why should anyone believe military tribunals and the denial of habeas corpus are anything other than a side show that distracts attention from the collosal blunders of iraq and afghanistan. so, the main effect of this aspect of the treatment of detainees will be an erosion of the geneva conventions and evacuation of any moral superiority the USA might claim in the ‘war on terror.’

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:12 pm
Roger K. Krakusin:

The dismantling of one of the brightest gems in our Anglo-Saxon jurisprudence by denying persons incarcerated by the sole whim of the Executive branch the right to access the courts to challenge the validity of their detention though the great writ of Habeas Corpus is a tragic day for our country. It is made even sadder by the realization that many members of Congress who voted to approve this monstrosity were only vaguely familiar (to be charitable) with its content, but instead merely only sought an electoral advantage no matter what the cost to the nation.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:14 pm
diogenes:

The Bush administration’s modification of the foundations that have governed our society’s laws(e.g., the habeas corpus) is a clear indication that we are moving percipitously towards the police state that was predicted by George Orwell in !984… We have to recognize George Orwell’s discernment and plan for the coming Orwalian police state.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:15 pm
Joan Braner:

It is frightenihg to observe that we have a President who sees defending torture as a viable method of winning elections. I don’t know whether it is a sad commentary on the President ( who has also demonstrated a tin ear to the Constitution) or on the American public who Bush believes is as H.L. Mencken
saw us ( Nobody ever lost a nickel underestimating the intelligence of the American public.) I pray fervently that Bush and Mencken are wrong, otherwise
we can kiss goodbye to what was a lovely country.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:16 pm
Stephen Fugett:

What frightens me most about the new detainee bill is the ability of a military “tribunal” to withhold “classified” evidence that allegedly led to the individual’s detention, or only offer a redacted account; and, closely related, the denial of the right to petition for writ of habeas corpus. Will the classified status of information be subject to review? Who gets to define “classified”? The military judge? The military prosecutor? The military defense counsel? (Will the detainee even have the right to counsel of his/her choosing?) The Bush administration? It is my feeling that the Bush administration just does not want anymore black eyes. The fall out over the number of detainees who turned out to be innocent, following extended periods of detention and mistreatment, is killing the world’s view of us, especially when we have been the most vocal opponents of identical practices by governments like the former Soviet Union and modern-day China. Those governments have never had qualms about detaining anyone for any reason they saw fit, without sharing the nature of the charges, the evidence supporting the charges, or the right to see the evidence and challenge its sufficiency for creating probable cause for the detention. Is this what you want? Do you want the government to be allowed to label someone enemy combatant, and detain them as such, without any true definition of that word, and without giving the detainee the ability to challenge its evident application to you, or the right to subject the governments findings to review? Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice and all the rest of the Bush cronies scare the crap out of me. They’ve already labeled those who oppose their detention bill as un-American and terrorist sympathizers. How long until “un-American” and “terrorist sympathizer” morph into “enemy combatant”?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:20 pm
MARDELL MOFFITT:

DO UNTO ‘OTHER” SOLIDERS, AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO “OUR” SOLDIERS….

WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT??????

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:24 pm
Gini Reticker:

The right to know what you are accused of and what evidence is being used against you is at the very foundation of our country. We are becoming a nation of men, not a nation of laws and in the process causing great harm to our souls, our reputation and our future.
Who ever imagined that we as a nation would be asking: Should a person be strapped to a board and have water poured down his nose? Should he be forced to stand naked for long periods of time in extreme cold without being allowed to sleep? Does it constitute murder if a suspect was killed at the hands of an interrogater if the interrogater was only seeking information?
It is hard to believe that this is America.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:24 pm
Tracy:

This bill is flagrantly in violation of the Constitution of the United States. You cannot throw someone, no matter how certain you are of their guilt, into a prison and not let them see the light of day until you are ready for them to.

Reports are coming in of Pakistan selling innocent civilians to the US for bounty. These same civilians are now in Guantanamo under stark conditions and have no ability to challenge their detention. This is evil.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:25 pm
Ari Schiffer:

I am deeply saddened that Congress has passed this bill. President Bush is gradually chipping away at our democracy by exploiting our fears. He is giving America a false of security, yet our biggest threat is our enemy from within–THE BUSH ADMINISTRATON! Nontheless, we Americans seem to be impotent to do anything about. These are indeed very unfortunate times for all America.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:27 pm
Sunny:

Torture? Are we for real? I have tried several times to craft a well-spoken and thoughtful response here. But I am sputtering and angry. We are supposed to be the “good guys.” We have not been invaded on our shores — 9-11 wasn’t followed by fighting in our streets. We are quickly becoming the people we are fighting. Torture? My country would legalize torture? I am ashamed. I am afraid. I see us turning into a nation of people whimpering and cowering, willing to trade our liberty for some fantasy of total iron-clad safety. This is my country. I am proud of where I live. I would not trade this nation for any other on the earth. But I am horrified of the thought of what we are becoming. What kind of land will my children inhabit? Torture? Dear God forbid that we become a people who would torture in the name of security.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:27 pm
Jesse:

I am so deeply ashamed of our current government. I have faith that in time we will be able to bounce back from all of the detrimental effects created by our president and his cronies. I am hoping this lapse in American values is only the product of an ego-driven administration and this backwards descent into the dark ages will quickly come to an end once they are removed from office.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:28 pm
David A Dowding:

The problem with this bill is that it eliminates the targets from any right to habeus corpus. The folks who rant about protecting the homeland are giving the Bush administration the tools to eliminate human rights. These shadow terrorists held for years without trial could be innocents that are wrongly accused and targeted for their political beliefs. Why are these folks hidden away . I suspect it is because many we jailed and tortured and cannot be freed because the administration would be found
culpable.This is a “cover your ass” ploy not a method of protecting America. What is sad is that they cloaked their mistakes in the mantle of protecting America while dismantiling the Bill of Rights,
David A Dwdiing

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:29 pm
Carolyn:

The ‘terrorists’ have won.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:30 pm
ciaran o:

Who could have predicted that a government of the US could enact such a policy, I am reminded of history of the Athens at the zenite of its influence and the bad policies that led to its downfall.
God bless the US

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:31 pm
Daniel:

For Catherine #113 who wants to know why we helped Europe in two world wars, it was because we were attacked, not any altruistic feelings to save Europe. Remember it took the Lusitania in WW I and Pearl Harbor in WW II before we got our act together. If the Germans had played it right in WW I, we might even have gone in on their side if we went at all.

Now we have been attacked, but we have not been invaded so the suspension of habeus corpus based on the Constitution does not apply. The situation is entirely different from the War of Northern Aggression when there actually was an insurrection in the US. Now we have a group of people claiming that because we were attacked it is ok to punish anyone that Mr. Bush & Co. feels like punishing outside of our Constitutional guarantees. Sorry, but that is not your father’s America, the one he fought for against the NAZI’s.

For those who claim that the bill is Constitutional, I wonder whose Constitution they are reading. For those who claim that it’s ok to imprison and kill innocent people on the off chance that one of them might actually be a terrorist, I wonder what is wrong with them. These people are sick. For those who think accident of birth gives them special privileges not accorded to other human beings, I’m sure that the elites would agree with that sentiment, but not that you should be included. As for those who think that Bush’s autoassumption of Commander in Chief is legitimate, they need to be reminded that no war was ever declared. What we have instead is the same thing that has been facing many of the European countries such as Spain (ETA), Greece, Italy and Germany (Red Guard and offshoots) who have been able to contain and control terrorism without resorting to military mobilization. By the way, someone said that the bill gives terrorists more rights than they have in European countries. This is as false as anything that Bush or Cheney ever said.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:34 pm
Alejandro Tomasini:

I think the bill is the worst thing that the American adminstration could have done. It’ll certainly have negative consequences inside the USA, i.e., for the American people’s rights, and it’ll leave Americans more unprotected abroad and liable to attacks by people who’ll feel themselves utterly justified in doing whatever they want, since they too are now potential victims of “legal torture” by American soldiers and political police.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:36 pm
Amy:

The government of this country has been torturing prisoners and suspending habeus corpus for three years. Why does the president need this legislation all of a sudden? Because the Supreme Court said that he was breaking the law. (Remember that checks and balances thing with the three branches of government? Every once and a while it still works a litlle bit.) He knew that he damn well had to change the law before the next election, when his puppets in the legislative branch might lose the majority. In that case, this legislation that grants him amnesty would not pass. Now it’s passed, and even if the Democrats squeak in, they won’t be powerful enough to undo this shameful law (yes, that’s what this country needs–more shame).

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:38 pm
Doug Theriaul:

Habeus Corpus has been thrown out in this bill. Remember, the other wars did not WRITE THIS INTO LAW. This government can do whatever it wants to now. First it’s the terrorists, then the people who speak out against the government (depending on who’s in power, could be anyone, or anyone in your family because you are now feeding a terrorist), then it’s the artists, then the gays, then the jews. This is the worst thing to ever happen to the united states since slavery. Making torture legal? Throwing out legal rights we all faught for? I’m mean, it’s just awful. Fascism here we are..

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:41 pm
Jarrad Mills:

I cannot believe the Senate just passed a bill explicitly denying
detainees habeas corpus. I just can’t believe it. Yes, I am aware, my
conservative compatriots, that habeas corpus has been denied to enemies in
wartime in the past. And furthermore I am familiar with arguments that “Our
prior concept of war has been completely altered, as we learned so
tragically on Sept. 11, 2001, and we must address threats in a different
way.” (Senator Saxby Chambliss, Republican of Georgia)

If, as Senator Chambliss asserts, our prior concept of war has been
completely altered, then I agree we must address threats in a different way.
If our concept of war has been expanded to include cat-and-mouse conflicts
with shadowy groups of individuals that don’t necessarily share ethnic,
national, or even religious ties, who seamlessly blend in with civilian
populations, who could be anyone that is not a U.S. citizen, then yes, we
need to address the threat differently. As our concept of the potential
enemy broadens dramatically, and as the evidence used to identify enemies
becomes less and less direct, we should be be MORE vigilant than ever about
whom we classify as an enemy. We must permit those people who are
classified as ‘unlawful enemy combatants’ to challenge that classification
in a civilian court with robust standards of admissable evidence.

And to address an objection that my detractors will certainly make, I am not
suggesting that unlawful enemy combatants must be tried for their alleged
crimes by civilian courts. Trial by military tribunals may be appropriate.
I am merely saying that the determination of a defendant’s status (enemy
combatant or no) should not be made solely at the discretion of the military
and the executive. That may have been good enough for our “prior concept”
of the enemy, but it is not good enough for our current, expanded one.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:43 pm
Peter:

If you read even parts of the bill, it suggests the main reason Bush needs
something like this is that they really don’t have enough evidence to convict
in a court of law the vast majority of the people they’re holding, and are preemptively trying to protect themselves from well-deserved legal action for false imprisonment. Hence all the restrictions on the right to appeal the president’s determinations in federal court.

It is a sad commentary on America that this can be passed stealthily, in a hurry, with hardly any protest from citizens- do we really believe that
non-citizen residents or suspected terrorists have less of a claim to due process or civilized treatment? Do people realize Congress just gave the president a blank check to decide what constitutes torture? In the 70s, Germany had Baader-Meinhof and Italy the Red Brigades (real terrorism, not isolated events)- and dealt with them without such nonsense.

To participants in this forum -let your congressman know how you feel. As I
told mine yesterday- shame on the 109th Congress for passing such un-American legislation, worthy of a banana republic- and shame on you for voting for it!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:44 pm
don anderson:

I believe the greatest threat to the security of America (I’m not sure if “our great nation” still flies as an appropriate expression) is not from the terrorists, but from the cabal or cabals (or “think tanks”/ “thought directors”) that steer our supposed elected officials.
No group of outside thugs, no matter their weaponry, will long subdue this country - frighten it into temporary immobility perhaps, but subdue it no.
Un-American activities set up by a shadow government can, however, set the stage for such a substantial degradation of democracy so as to make it make un-recognizable and unusable.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:45 pm
Cary:

The bill is absolutely necessary to fight the war on terrorism. I have no sympathy for terrorists. I do for the loved ones of victims on 9/11 and all other innocent people killed by terrorists. Bush is doing a great job and I’m glad we choose him to be our leader twice.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:45 pm
Michael Cooks:

I am wondering is when the bill to make bush King of the US is going to come up in congress? I would think they would try to get that through before the elections, can’t wait to how many senators and congressmen will vote for ilt. All Bush has to do is say he will veto a few of there bills and they will be right there with him. It is really very sad times when the American public will no longer defend themselves against the likes of this administration.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:48 pm
Jerry G.:

We will now have the legal tools to go after these people who mock us for our perceived “weaknesses.” This is a new era and requires new methods (with safeguards in place) to deal with those whose hatred and murderous intentions know no bounds.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:49 pm
John R.:

I am waiting for this administration to declare a state of emergency that nulifies the entire constitution. Congress will of course give it their approval. We cannot win a fight against radical ideologies by ignoring the principles by which we have lived for more than 200 years.

I will never have mercy for people that try to bring change through terrorizing others. However, either the detainees in Guantanamo (or wherever else this administration hides them) are Soldiers of war and afforded the rights under the Geneva Conventions or they are common criminals and afforded the rights under our consitution.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:51 pm
Charlie:

All one need do is to read the bulk of the sob-filled comments on this page to see the reason for the detainee bill. We are dealing with people who keep women in bondage, and gouge out the eyes of people with whom they disagree, or, worse, innocents who happen to be in their way. And all our sob-sisters and brothers can do is attack the administration. I thought I read where 15 of the 19 Arabs who flew into the Trade Center were Saudis, not members of the Bush Administration.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:55 pm
Karl Siegemund:

What use is this bill?

Do we get any better intelligence by torturing people? Torture will make people confess. But what? The truth? No. They confess what the torturer wants to hear. Because only this makes the torturer stop the torture. So all torture is able to do is to cast the prejudices of the interrogator in iron. It doesn’t add any valuable information. And if it does by chance, then it is buried in a heap of false confessions from people who just wanted to escape torture.

Are we able to hold people who will otherwise try to kill us? Maybe. But that can also be done with bringing those to justice and let the courts decide. But in this case we are surely also holding people who didn’t want to kill us. How many people have been released from Guantanamo without further charges? They weren’t a thread to us when they were imprisoned. So did this increase our security? No. Did it make a lot of people unhappy and created the impression, that terrorism is a valid form of self defense? Yes.

So this bill will not get us better information in the so called war on terror. So this bill will not prevent any terrorist attacks which could otherwise not be prevented. All this does is a late rationalization of the mistakes of a president who thought himself above the law.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
Stephen H. Unger:

This is a good example of destroying an asset in order to protect it. The glory of our country is in the way it has stood for human rights and freedom. Our constitution unequivocally rejects authoritarian government, and prohibits arbitrary acts of government against individuals. The most fundamental point is prohibition of arbitrary seizure and imprisonment of people without due process, which is the essence of habeas corpus (a shield first developed in Britain centuries ago). The legislation under discussion would allow the President to “disappear” anybody, including US citizens, by simpler designating them as “enemy combatants”, which can be done arbitrarily. Such people would be unable to defend themselves via normal legal procedures. This is not just a theoretical possibility–it has already been done in the case of Jose Padilla. A US citizen, he was kept for more than 3 years in a military prison and never charged with any crime. This is the sort of thing that went on in the Soviet Union and in Latin American dictatorships.

Other provisions of this bill weaken barriers against torture and violations of the Geneva Convention. In general it represents a major step toward the destruction of our hard won liberties. Those who have supported it have demonstrated that they have no confidence in traditional American values. They act as though freedom and democracy are luxuries that must be abandoned when the going gets rough, rather than as robust principles that are particularly valuable in helping us navigate through difficult waters. Note that the regimes of Hitler, Stalin, and South American dictators such as Pinochet, that abandoned (or never embraced) the concepts embodied in our Bill of Rights did not survive. It would be tragic if we followed their path.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:57 pm
Susan:

This bill erases habeas corpus and generally gives Mr. Bush and his minions a free pass to do whatever they wish to anyone they decide to label ‘enemy combatant’. Any of us could become so labeled given the capricious vindictive nature of this administration. Who could have imagine such sadistic fascism could take hold in my country. We should all be disgusted, and determined to create a regime change in America. Educate yourself, open your eyes and mind and VOTE for change.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 12:57 pm
April Williams:

I don’t believe these extraordinary measures should be legalized. I have no faith that the Bush government is telling the truth about it’s need, and without specifics that can be independently verified, I’ll continue to believe that it’s all a bunch of bull s…. April Williams

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
kat b:

This administration has corrupted the American system to achieve their own ambitious, devious goals. The working men, women and children of this country and our senior citizens will be paying for the blunders in Iraq and the loss of personal freedoms here at home for generations. We have lost the moral higher ground that traditionally guided our international and domestic programs; this most recent push to negate the spirit of the Geneva Convention reflects a corporate, profit-driven ethic that dehumanizes and distorts the truth. These “leaders” wear their religion like a convenient cloak to hide their dark deeds and inflame the public on topics best left to individual choice. Shame on them all.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:02 pm
martin:

we are witnessing the decline of the american civilization. all empires fall, and it is usually the rotting from within that precipitates it. nov. 7 will indicate its completeness.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:02 pm
Denise Medley:

I am stunned that the United States even had to have a debate on whether or not to sanction torture. Our heritage is one of democracy, yet the current administration, while mouthing the word democracy out of one side of its mouth, utters contempt for those who suggest that they act democratically.
Since taking office the president has done everything he can to turn our allies away from us and put our country in greater peril. Adding torture to our bag of tricks will only put us in league with despots and dictators in other countries. We have sunk to a new low and I sincerely hope that the country takes a good look at itself and uses the upcoming election to turn our country, not in a new direction, but back to the direction we started in the 1700s.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:05 pm
Sharon:

I am ashamed of my NJ Senators. Americans lack knowledge of their own history and the implications of this bill. We have allowed our representatives to ignore our basic human rights.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:05 pm
Steve:

This is a disgusting power grab and misuse of executive power, albeit supported by (mostly) republicans. Sadly, there is no telling how long it will take the Supreme Court to be involved and to stope what appears to be constitutionally suspect legislation. Until then, you can be sure the republicans will trumpet the success of their torture law and paint everyone else as weak. They are sick. We must vote for serious change in November!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:06 pm
Robert Queen:

Appalled. Appalled. Appalled. Ignorance, cynicism and greed have brought us as a nation to a point where the ideals of our founding fathers and what they fought for no longer matter or are understood. The wrongness of the lettres de cachet of Louis XVI and the unchecked powers of an executive such as George III are precisely why the checks and balances of system of government were created.

I wonder now if we don’t deserve the inevitable reaction that we are doomed to suffer by what is being wrought in our names. Do not ask “Why us?” when we are once again hit by a terrorist act, America. Don’t dare ask that question.

I am ashamed and disillusioned by who and what we have become. It is not in my name, no. Not in my name, not this. Two billion dollars a week, America, that is how much your compassionate conservatism is costing you. And to what good?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:06 pm
J.W.:

this may be a day to remember the famous poem by Pastor Martin Niemöller:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:07 pm
Richard Stumbo:

As much as anything I am disgusted by the 34 Democrats in the House who voted for this criminal measure, including our own spineless Dennis Moore from the 3rd Dstrict of Kansas. He calls himself a Democrat, but he is little if any better Joe Lieberman, the creature from under the rock.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
Jeff Stein:

Acting tough is not the same as being tough. And being tough alone is not the same as being tough and smart. When is the American electorate going to get hip to this and realize that current administration policies are not providing the results that we’re all seeking. This bill is further evidence of a moral decline that is gripping this nation. We’ve not only lost our way but we’re losing our power, day by day. Congress should be tossed out along with the rest of the current administration

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
Casey:

In addition to the comments above, this law is, like so many other pieces of Republican legislation, just plain stupid. How long before there are mass demonstrations throughout the Muslim world to “Free the Guantamano 500″? How many of our allies will stand beside us on this issue? How many Muslims not damaged by our current depredations in the Middle East will now be inspired to join the fight. (I don’t bring this up as a fear-mongering, “the terrorists are coming!” administration campaign tactic. It is just a little reality.)

My God. Is offering a level of justice practiced by the entire civilized world just too much trouble or is it too damaging to Mr. Bush personally? Guantanamo and the other secret prisons have already been condemned by the U.N. and by nations around the world. What possible good do the Republicans believe will result from denying common, human rights to a bunch of prisoners who are no longer any danger to anybody.

Immoral and unconstitutional and stupid, stupid, stupid!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:12 pm
Dominic:

It is revolting to me that this administration is emulating in great detail everything it is purportedly fighting against. I’ve been very ashamed at the actions of this country’s leadership for the past few years but my disgust has reached a new low.
I have read every one of these comments and I sense the overwhelming outrage of the American people. That is why is is ESSENTIAL that we act in November to vote out the senators who have shown themselves to be collaborationists with the worst administration this nation has ever had the shame to see.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:13 pm
Merrily Helgeson:

This is the most terrifying legislation of my lifetime. I am appalled that no Democratic senator would stand to filibuster it. It will mean that any of us, slapped with the appropriate designation, can be snatched out of our lives and sent to be tortured. We won’t be able to protest it or defend ourselves and no one will ever know. Do we believe that this administration won’t use its new power in this way? Do we have any good reason to doubt it?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:14 pm
nino assereto:

The theory of check and balances that has given such a high moral ground to the USA constitution, has been dewstroyed. I hope Americans will redress this descending moral path started with the “war on terrorism”. USA is loosing this war and the simpathy of the rest of the world.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:14 pm
Bennett:

This can’t be my country. My country is the moral leader of the world. We abhore countries that deny people due process. We despise countries that find torture their prisoners.

We have codified in law that the courts do not have the right to review whether imprisonment is legal or not. What we have made is a monarchy, where people are imprisoned indefinitely and tortured at the whim of the President.

Of all the horrible things that this administration has done, this is the worst. Of all the rubber stamps this cowardly group of legislators has stamped, this is the worst.

Now we can put the United States in that auspicious list that includes Cuba and China as states that sponsor human rights violations. Our moral leadership has evaporated and we are despised throughout the world. I wonder why?

I love my country. When did this happen to it?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:15 pm
Jean Gerard:

U.S. acquiescence to torture in the military tribunal laws, the denial of habeas corpus — all that is a huge mistake. It will only increase cruelty and pain, hatred and the desire for revenge. Our country’s reputation will sink further down.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:18 pm
Patrick P.:

I am deeply saddened to see yet another example of the decline of the once-great American empire. You folks used to embody many of the ideals that much of the rest of the world strived to achieve. Whatever horrors your foreign affairs wrought on unsuspecting people (and there were many), you always had a great legal system at home that protected basic rights. No longer. The US govt has become little more than a playground bully both abroad and now even in your ‘homeland’ (aka ‘Fatherland’?), and your friends are starting to keep their distance while your enemies are emboldened.
“First they came for the Muslims, but I wasn’t a Muslim…”

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:20 pm
DeWitt Angevine:

The aim of terrorists is to disrupt and damage our way of life. When we compromise our liberties, our beliefs and our constitution as a result of an act of terror, then the terrorists have achieved their goal.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:22 pm
patrick hughes:

this is a sad day for the america that emerged after WW2 as the leader of a free and democratic world. To have written these lines into law defines a new low in the behavior of Republican Presidents and the Republican Party since the years of Nixon. America badly needs new leadership that can reconfigure our traditions for a realistic engagement with current national and international circumstances.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:23 pm
Amigo:

From the NY Times—

“The House voted on Thursday to give the president the formal power to order wiretaps on Americans without a court order for 90 days, even as a federal judge in Detroit once again declared the administration’s program of wiretapping without warrants to be illegal.

Even some Republicans who voted for the bill said they expected the Supreme Court to strike down the legislation because of the provision barring court detainees’ challenges, an outcome that would send the legislation right back to Congress.

“We should have done it right, because we’re going to have to do it again,” said Senator Gordon H. Smith, Republican of Oregon, who voted to strike the provision and yet supported the bill.”

This is the classic Republican way of doing things, screw up first and then hope somebody will catch it and correct it !

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:26 pm
Amigo:

From the NY Times—

“We should have done it right, because we’re going to have to do it again,” said Senator Gordon H. Smith, Republican of Oregon, who voted to strike the provision and yet supported the bill.”

This is the classic Republican way of doing things, screw up first and then hope somebody will catch it and correct it !
The Republicans and the President are playing right into Osama’s hands!!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:33 pm
Dick Heiser:

Torture is always wrong, and we are mistaken to look for opportunities to practice it.

We shame ourselves by condoning it. We endanger our own soldiers.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:33 pm
michael:

It is a sad day for democracy when we vote to deny basic human rights to anyone. A person can be locked a way and tortured, held forever at the whim of the president, never told what his crime is, and never released. Would that the Republicans had understood Kafka’s THE TRIAL as a nightmare to be avoided rather than a dream to bring to life. Rest in peace Habeas Corpus (1215 to 2006). You served us well. But no more.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:36 pm
Joel Hammer:

The passage of this bill will be a great tragedy for America and for what we stand for in the world. It is being passed to give George W. Bush and his war criminal cabinet a get out of jail pass for high crimes and misdemeanors against the American people.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:41 pm
Jim Campbell:

It is imperative that some process be adopted in order to bring the issues of guilt/innocence to a fact finder. However, this bill is a travesty when viewed in the context of jurisprudence. It creates an unfair process, and puts the President of the United States in the position of determing what is proper interrogation. A very sad day for the US, but par for the course for this Republican “toadie” Congress.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:44 pm
steve chapple:

Torture. What are we Austria-Hungary 1885? This is another nail in the coffin of American democracy driven by the Texas oil thugs. Does anybody believe Dick Cheney has any interest in or respect for American freedom? Impeach Bush. Jail the rest for high crimes and misdemeanors. And will we even be able to say these things in four years?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:45 pm
Ken P:

There’s little to add to the great outpouring of angst and sorrow already posted here, except perhaps this. What is particularly distressing about what the Bush leadership has done in this mid-term election season is that the move to rush this Bill through Congress was so blatently cynical. This President has already shown that he is willling to authorizie as “C-I-C” much of what is contained in this legislation. He didn’t “need” it, but by pressing it into legislation the President has given one more opportunity for his machine to attack those who vote NO,as soft on security! It was merely a ‘turkey shoot’.

Thanks to the Democratic senators and congressmen who were brave enough to vote their resolve anyway! Their example could just be enough for me to see some light at the end of this dark tunnel our country is going through.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:51 pm
hawkwoman0:

A disgrace, a complete disgrace. This will rank with the internment of US Japanese citizens someday. I am so ashamed. If I were younger and starting a family, I would emigrate to Canada at this point. The Republicans have betrayed everything this country once stood for and it will take decades to undo their damage.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:53 pm
Farley:

It’s not surprising since the constitution is only “a piece of paper” to Bush. This will never pass muster with the Supreme Court. And as someone mentioned earlier Congress has treasonously reniged on its obligation to uphold the constitution of the United States.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:56 pm
Kapaka L. Senko:

Passage of bills that give the President unchecked power are akin to supporting the likes of infamous dictators! I can only hope the next President, Congress, and Courts will undo this anti-democratic regime’s chokehold on rights we Americans have formerly protected with our lives! This is a dangerous and irresponsible breach of my trust in the officials I helped to elect!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:58 pm
Marc Zarowin:

The new “terrorism” bill may give some in the world a sense they can be satisfied by retribution.

In the short-term, such retribution mania-medication will, to the extent it arises, cause far greater danger all around the world by numbing citizens to the fact “terrorist” behavior grows in disarming alliance to the extent it is “battled” with military armament, rather than building the community structures that Hezbollah, for example, has so effectively used to further its own growth, popular local support.

Hezbollah military “power” is not the most effective method, making perhaps as many enemies as the new “terrorism law” may make.

I am ashamed by such “playground” behavior, despite not supporting simplistic, military solutions.

From this strength does not grow.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 1:59 pm
Gillian Zeldin:

It is remarkable that the road to the loss of Habeas Corpus is so short. The construct of our American legal system was built on the recognition of centuries of weaknesses and oppourtunities for abuses of freedoms of all prior governments. We sought to do better, and have earned the respect and envy of many other nations, because we could never ‘disappear’ anyone. I am proud to be American, but I am less proud today - less proud of the complacency of our citizenry, of the widespread lack of understanding of the foundations of our freedom, and of the complicity of our elected lawmakers.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:05 pm
Milan Vesely:

Eighteen years ago I came to the United States as a white refugee from the African country of my birth. My choice was based on the fact that America was a nation of just laws that occupied the moral high ground.

This was important to me and my family because, as a successful businessman, I had been falsly arrested, held for 4 years without trial, tortured, seperated from my family and finally stripped of all we owned by a president and his henchmen bent on enriching themselves.

Now I read the new detainee bill and wake up at night asking
myself: “Am I really in the United States of America?”

Milan

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:07 pm
daveO:

This law brings shame on all Americans. It abrogates all that America stands for: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you,” Luke 6.31; “Hurt noone so that no one may hurt you,” Mohammed’s Farewell Sermon; “Love thy neighbor as yourself,” The Torah, Leviticus, 19.18. I am disgusted that Congress and the administration feel the need to pass such a law. The implications of this law are too horrible to imagine.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:08 pm
Noam:

What the administration fails to understand is that our best weapon against the terrorists is our moral high ground. The battle is not one over territory, but for people’s “hearts and minds”, and by turning a country the world looked up to as a model of democracy, freedom, and human rights, and turning it into only now throughout the world associated with torture, lack of basic rights, and little respect for international norms, we are handing the terrorists the battlefield.

The current system worked fine fighting communism, Nazi Germany, and other threats. To assume that the terrorists are so much a greater threat than all others before that our basic rights and system of justice are a luxury we can no longer afford is ludicrous.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
Ute Kavanaugh:

Our country’s laws deal with criminals. The Geneva Conventions deal with other nations, nations who love their families and have something to lose. Torture can never be the answer but we have not found a way to deal with people who hate us more than they love life - people who do not submit to any human laws upheld by mankind.
How then do you propose to handle someone who has sworn to kill you and your family when given the chance? Terrorists held in Guantanamo and being released after declaring they are innocent have returned to the battlefield and killed again - killed truly innocent people.
We must uphold our honour and laws, but we also must make sure that people who kill without regard to humanity cannot do so again.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
H.B.:

I hope when history looks back on us they see the people who have tried to stop this travesty from occurring - our government is no longer accountable even to us.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:10 pm
Steve R:

It’s already been said here but I think it needs repeating: no one wants terrorists to run free but the problem seems to be in proving who is a terrorist. We can’t arrest whomever we please or say have secret information about someone without publicly charging him, proving the allegation and/or allowing him to defend himself against it if he chooses. It upsets me to think that we are allowing our government to behave like fascists in order to protect our democracy. If the current administration is allowed to continue leading our nation, I am afraid that we will no longer have a democracy to protect.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:15 pm
Brian:

For the we’re in a time of war guys….

We are indeed in a time of war, but the war on terror it isn’t a convential war like WWII or the Civil War, its a war of patience, taking several generations to end. Much like the Cold War which started in 1945 and ended in 1991. If there are no terrorist acts on a continued basis, which ironically, this adminstration likes to point out, shouldn’t we drop the time of war bit, and try them fairly when accused terrorists come to trial for after all you’re innocent until proven guilty?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:18 pm
Stan Schurman:

Why has there not been more of an outcry from the American legal community? The arbitrary nature of this law (or lack thereof) essentially means that the Bush gang can take anyone it deems to be a threat (i.e., anyone that doesn’t agree with its policies) and have them detained without council or recourse. This goes against everything the U.S. supposedly stands for and everything most democracies stand for. If these detainees are guilty, then why the fear of putting them on trial? Denying basic legal rights to a few puts the population as a whole at risk eventually. A right to due process that doesn’t apply universally is no right at all. When are the American people going to recognize that they are on a slippery slope being greased by a gang of lawless, self-serving sociopaths in the White House.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
Lans:

Responding to post 183 by Len:

I think many Americans have never fought in a war, including myself, but that does not mean many these people are not hurted by war. Think parents and friends having to bury the dead or taking care of the disable soldier for the rest or his/her life. It is true most people will never know what it will be like fighting in a war but I hope it remains that way — do you really want to see a war where everyone is a solider?

I don’t think anyone said soldiers should not be allowed to defend themselves and in fact I would believe everyone would agree that killing someone in warzone is more or less expected.

However, what we are talking about here is people captured and have no real way of doing any harm to others. Do you want your family and friends to be detained and tortured without a trial maybe because they were wiretapped and thought to have conenctions to terrorists? Or on some other very shady grounds?!!! Is that what you fought for?

I have family who fought in Iraq but I would never claim to know their pain. I believe the longer we stay in Iraq, the more likely it is I’ll get drafted but that fear should and can not justify legalize torture.

I feel this is the first concrete step towards the downfall of the US as a superpower. The US no longer has the moral high ground and this gives other nations reason to stand up against the US and all injustice and bullying through out the years.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:22 pm
E. Camacho:

The bill is unecessary. Sadly, the current administration seems to be drifting away from the values, which made this country great, and made us proud to be Americans. Instead of trying to make more laws, the administration should put its efforts into abiding by the current ones, and enforcing the rule of law–including due process. Nedless to say, we should go back to the American values–respecting human dignity, honoring the rule of law (national and international), promoting tolerance, and respecting different ideas– that once made this country an example to all others. Only then, can we start gaining some of the many things we have lost as people of this wonderful nation.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:25 pm
kim k johnson:

The detainee bill in NOT a necessary tool for prosecuting terrorists - it is a bill designed to protect an administration that has broken the law. It provides a huge opportunity for innocent people to be arrested and hidden away forever. This is not the American way. This is a tragedy of corrupt power.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:26 pm
hatchje:

The argument that we should not amend the geneva convention because it may cause other nations to amend it and in turn torture and kill Americans is NO ARGUMENT.

No matter what the reason,TORTURE AND MURDER are wrong, and we are in a position to be leaders in this. We as Americans have the priviledge to make correct choices out of freedom, not because we want (or need) something from someone else.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:27 pm
karen turro:

I am ashamed and embarrrassed for this government. Our democratic values are being destroyed by an incompetent and arrogant White House, Senate and House of representatives. The minority party should be ashamed of themselves for not standing up to this chicanory, It’s all about getting power and keeping power. To paraphrase a poet, the best have lost all incentive and the worst are full of passionate intensity.
I don’t recognize this country any more.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:28 pm
Laura Lockridge:

The detainee bill is a dangerous threat to the Constitution. We in the US do not need such extreme measures to combat terrorism. We risk our reputation and standing in the world with laws that allow us to arrest people and let them sit in jail without recourse. It has already been proven that we have treated innocent people as terrorists.

We must hold ourselves to a higher standard. I fear most people are thinking “This is what terrorists deserve.” It is a gut reaction to the violence of 9/11. A desire for revenge. But we are putting our democracy at risk while telling the rest of the world that democracy is the only way to peace and freedom.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:29 pm
Burke Omalley:

Cheny and Rumsfeld’s vision of a president with dictatorial powers has been ratified. The constitution has no merit. The Supreme Court is meaningless. Habeus corpus is meaningless. The world can see that the leaders of this country are so frightened by terrorism that they have lost their moral compass. We are no longer a nation of laws but of men. Now we can fear not only our enemies overseas but the prospect of being sent to Guantamo for the most flimsy of reasons. What a sad and shameful day for the republic.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:31 pm
William Miller:

The “detainee bill” is a horrid contortion of the U.S. constitution and even the Magna Carta. Sadly, the country is losing credibility on all fronts.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
alex simon:

this bill, like everything else this administration, with the complacency of the American people, has done, is against everything this country stands for. We have lost the “war on terror” when we act like the people we’re supposed to be standing against.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:33 pm
gregdn:

If you’d have told me ten years ago that we as a nation would even be debating torturing people, let alone enshrining it into law I’d have accused you of being a wild eyed kook.
How far down the slope we’ve slid in these five years.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:35 pm
H Bavinck:

Whatever this bill is about, it’s not fighting terrorism. You can’t fight international terrorism without international cooperation. As of Bush’s signature under the bill, almost all democracies in the world will be disallowed by their courts from extraditing subjects to the U.S., from giving names to the C.I.A, or from committing any other action that may result in their citizen’s being tortured or transported to a country where they are not guaranteed a fair trial.
To put in bluntly, if Great Britain captures Bin Laden, thanks to this bill they’ll be forced to keep him safe from the U.S.
Germany has already put out arrest orders against 24 C.I.A. operatives, for their role in the torture of an innocent German citizen…

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:36 pm
tony:

The US is becoming what they always said they were fighting against.
Hello Stalin Junior

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:36 pm
Dale Eldridge:

If more than a handful of senators and congressmen had children in the service, I wonder how the vote would have turned out. They have not only voted to deny basic human and Constitutional rights to many who may be innocent, they put our service men and women in greater jeopardy by this despicable act. We ought to be so ashamed.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:37 pm
Scott:

It is a shame that we should try to convince ourselves that, somehow, we can protect our constitutional form of government by destroying the intrinsic protections that it guarantees, and that our forbears fought for. It is a shame that we have the only military force in the world that refuses to learn the lessons taught by the Viet Cong and others regarding fighting an ill defined war where every retaliation only polarizes the general population. It is a shame that we somehow consider “our” current government’s fundamentalist oil-family mullahs to be better than “their” fundamentalist oil-family mullahs. Mr. Bin Laden, who was explicit in his desire for a confrontation between the West and Islamic people no longer needs exert himself — we seem to be doing his job for him.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:37 pm
Christy Smith:

I believe this is the first step toward the wholesale internment of ordinary American citizens who simply oppose George Bush’s policies. A terrorist is whoever George Bush’s government says it is. Will you or I be next?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:37 pm
Robert Parsons:

I believe the rendition of detainees to secret prisons in foreign countrys, speccial rules of interrogation for the CIA and denial of habeas corpus to prisoners are all threat to our civil rights

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:40 pm
keith clarke:

Osama Bin Laden wins when we become no better than he is. When they make us abandon our moral high ground on torture, and we can no longer be a naive little nation ignoring the reality that Bush condones torture, the terrorists win. When we crawl in the gutter by running away from the Geneva Convention because our leaders are so despearte to appear to be winning, then Osama Bin Laden smiles from his cave at our slow unravelling. Bush, Rove, Rumsfield, Rice et al are traitors to this country’s great Constitution because they are more concerned with being Republican than they are with being American. History will consider them cowards… May they be haunted by all of the unneccasary loss of life they continue to heap upon the world… Afghanistan was an opportunity to rebuild a broken nation and show the Muslim world that we embrace them, yet Bush abandoned it for Republican agendas that had nothing to do with terrorism. I hope Bush’s God has mercy on his soul.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:43 pm
Ron Clabaugh:

The Republican controlled Congress has totally failed its responsibility to the America. I had thought that perhaps Senator McCain would have the courage to stand up for the principles he expoused on protecting the rights of detainees, but once again he apparently is more interested in running for president than he is for standing up for his purported principles. Congress gave Bush the blank check he wanted, just as they did in allowing him to take us to war against Iraq. Once again they have taken action to demostrate that the only diifference between us and the so called “terrorists” is at most one of degree and not principle. They use roadside bombs to kill innocent people which we describe as murder, we drop our bombs from airplanes killing innocent people which we describe as “collateral damage”. They decapitate some prisoners, we humilitate them and keep them in jail until our President in his sole discretion has determined that there are no more terrorists to make war agaisnt.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:44 pm
James M. Mathis:

This bill is a waste of time and legislative effort, a diversion from other matters far more important. At the bottom of it somewhere is lawyer pocketbooks. There is ample precedent in war on what to do with ununiformed, irregular combatants, so those picked up on the battlefield are easily identified as those who should be shot. Morally, due to their lack of concern for humane sensibilities set forth in conventions, what is done with them before they are shot is totally a matter of necessity or perhaps even expediency as established by their captors. The citizenship of the irregular should not be considered at all. A US citizen should get no more consideration in Afghanistan than an Iranian or Saudi would which should be “none”.

In the states, foreigners suspected of terrorist support or activity shouldhave no rights whatsoever, either, especially if their legal status has lapsed or was intitially illegal. This is where the Congress could apply some law so it is easier to catch and exterminate citcizen terrorists, especially those hiding behind the Moslem religion.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:44 pm
Maggie Sherman:

Sadly the scariest thing going on in the entire world is the reign of George W. Bush.

Maggie

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:47 pm
Lukas:

The owners of this country use this bill to give themselves power. They effectively mangled the constitution and rendered it useless to a large percentage of the US population. They do this in the face of security. The problem with torturing people and removing their rights ,be the enemy combatants or just non-citizens, is that these heinous acts will become an everyday reality for even natural born citzens.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Franklin’s Contributions to the Conference on February 17 (III) Fri, Feb 17, 1775

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:53 pm
Joe C.:

Ask any Vet that spent time in a P.O.W. camp what kind of good info the N.V.A. got out of them? How can the leader of our country condem nations such as Iraq and Iran as an Axis of Evil yet use the exact same methods that make them evil. This is a sad day for democracy.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:57 pm
Richard:

The detainee bill is one of the worst assaults on the Bill of Rights since the Alien and Sedition Acts. It will not make us safer; indeed, our troops will be at greater risk than ever, since we have abandoned any pretense of adherence to the rule of law. Congress - and particularly the Democrats in the Senate, who could have filibustered this awful bill but lacked the wisdom or courage to do so - will have to answer to future generations for this effront to our liberties. I am increasingly ashamed to call myself an American.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 2:57 pm
arnold Abelson:

This bill takes American justice back to the days of the Star Chamber in England. No one is safe from being snatched off the street on the word of a anonymous accuser. The yea votes of Lieberman and the mid-westerners are understandable, but why did both NJ senators vote yea?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:04 pm
Harriet:

This bill is against everything I believe in as an Episcopalian Catholic.

I don’t see how we can possibly call ourselves a Christian country after this.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:06 pm
Jan R:

This is a shameful bill and these politicians who passed it are shameful men and women. They are sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States of America and are, instead, gutting its basic protections. This bill is really treasonous to the American ideal, to the Constitution, and to all the men and women who have fought, who have died and who are fighting and who are dying to protect America. This is really “rotting from within” and we are now exposed before the world. By grace of this administration and the Republican Party, we’re not the good guys any more.

This is a morally bankrupt administration - that has been amply demonstrated. It is harder to understand why the rest of the Republican Party joins in this rush to start down the slippery slope toward tyranny. I for one feel much, much less safe as result of all of these actions to “protect us”. I consider myself fiscally conservative - but there is no way I can support a party that has abandoned its moral moorings.

I often wonder if this administration (intentionally not capitalized - they do not deserve it) has adopted the novel “1984″ as their true bible. They certainly act that way.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:07 pm
Sebastian Wreford:

The bill is a shameful atrocity.

I don’t know how those people can look in the mirror.

And I can’t teach my children to be proud of an America that allows this.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:09 pm
Kelly R Burnett:

I am a 59 year old Vietnam era veteran, and I have never been more ashamed, angry, disgusted and shocked that this Administration would sell America’s values for political gain. This President and his cabal should be impeached. If the Supreme Court doesn’t overturn this bill America will be lost forever. We have become what we supposedly hate. I am not proud to be an American and I think of all the men and women who have given their lives to uphold America’s values, what an historic waste.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:11 pm
Fred:

This new law is shameful and is just another indication of how low our
country has become under this administration.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:11 pm
Tom Pacheco:

I am distressed that this bill passed and will become law. This bill not only sets a dangerous precident but goes against all common laws of decency. Our president claims to be a religous person but what he is doing is a sin in my eye’s and the eye’s of most of the civilized world.
I hope that someone , somehwere will fight this all the way to the Supreme Court. Hopefully they still have the capability of preserving our Constitution. Sadly I am becoming ashamed to be an American. I am a Vietnam Veteran and served my country during what I thought were the most perilous of times. Unfortunately now we are at the precipace of destroying all that we have fought and died for.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:12 pm
Grady Ward:

Not content with contradicting our constitution, not allowing habeas corpus seeks to undermine the Magna Carta of 700 years earlier. Shame on Congress.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:13 pm
Dan Balfour:

Democracy and political rights are always fragile. The Bush administration is in the process of smashing them beyond recognition. The arguments being made for the necessity of these measures are eerily similar to those made during the dark days of McCarthyism. We can fight our enemies without destroying our political system. Bush and company reveal their moral weakness and lack of courage when they insist upon using torture and usurping rights in the name of defending the nation. They swore to uphold the constitution and now deserve to be removed from office.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:14 pm
Kumar:

Imagine this scenario. American soldiers caught as enemy combatants in another country. They will be denied the right to courts\attorneys and can be held indefinitely (read it as life long) with no contact to their families in prisons on foreign soil.

If your gut revolts at this, so should you to the new legislation.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:15 pm
James Charles:

In case I go missing tomorrow and you can’t find me, please do me a favour and remember something.

Until yesterday, what separated America from every other nation on the face of the earth was the elegantly simply idea we can think what we want, speak what we want, write what we want, worship (or not) as we want, go where we want, befriend who we want, vote as we want, protest as we want.

That was the dream.

Once upon a time, it existed for real. It lasted 230 years. Tell your children so they can tell their children. And tell them to remember that no good idea ever dies.

Like Camelot, the dream was here for one brief, shining moment.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:17 pm
John J B Miller:

Our Civil Rights are eroding more and more. I fear we are no longer the “Land of Liberty”. We should take the word off our coins!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:19 pm
John R.Tkach:

I will try to keep this comment as moderate as possible. Prior attempts at posting comments have sometimes resulted, I assume, in rejection because I have been immoderate. Requests for clarification were futile.

I am astonished that Americans accept the torture of innocents as a worthwhile pursuit of this administration. After all, we are torturing Iraqis, Bedouins who were only roaming over their part of the desert, when we attacked them for their oil. No ties to anyone or anything involved in 9/11. A small group of neo-cons, involved in a cabal with megalomaniac delusions, thought they could create “their own reality.”

Book after book, the latest by Bush lapdog Bob Woodward, details the colossal ineptness of this administration.

This same cabal, undeterred by their massive incompetence, are still pursuing a tyranny and attempting to do away with any checks and balances.

The reason, I believe, that they are so inept, is because truth no longer plays any part in their daily lives. Everything is cover-up and spin.

Polls indicate that 25% of the population think congress is doing a good job. They must be from a different planet than earth.

80% of republicans think the Iraq war is being fought because of 9/11.

We have lost a once great country!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
Peter Bohacek:

We fled Communist Czechoslovakia in 1948 because my father was persecuted, but no charges were ever disclosed. His “crime” was probably that he was critical of the Communists and chose to “vote” in the rigged election against the communist candidate. We were very lucky to be able to immigrate to the US, the land of the free. Now this wonderful country is operating in ways that are very close to the way the Communists operated: punish your critics; do not disclose charges; jail dissidents and suspected people after holding rigged political trials; discredit lesser critics in the state friendly press; and bring wealth to the ruling class.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:29 pm
Ian Pepper:

“Here there is no why,” Hier gibt es kein Warum,” said an Auschwitz guard to Primo Levi when the Italian author and Holocaust survivor questioned an arbitrary and cruel command.

Our founding fathers would have cheerfully died to defend Habeas Corpus, the sacred rights of the accused to petition the state, because without it, there is no longer any “why,” only tyranny at its most savage.

Every legislator who voted yes for “there is no why” is a traitor.
To have voted “yes,” moreover, in the expectation that the Supreme Court will later rescind this fascistic bill was a cynical evasion of responsibility.

I am a US citizen who has lived for many years in Germany, where I have been treated with the greatest respect.

Now I will have to explain to my European friends (including those residing in the US) that when visiting my country, they are stripped of the most fundamental rights, are at the disposal of berserk executive powers.

The reputation of the US will take decades to recover – if ever.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:35 pm
Anne D.:

My goodness - listen to yourselves! How paranoid. If we lived in a police state, this open forum would not exist. If Bush were a fascist, we would not be having elections in November. Just because you don’t like someone doesn’t mean they are a fascist. Congress VOTED for this law. That’s right - voted. You voted for them, and now they vote for you. If you don’t like them, vote for someone else - you get to do it every two years. If that doesn’t suit you, then leave. But please, spare us the paranoid babble so we can have a REAL debate.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:36 pm
Fred Vogel:

Today is a dark day in the legal history of the USA. Fundamental rights are being abrogated of defendants - as serious as their crimes may be - in the name of an ill conceived “war” on terrorism.
I remain confident that the Supreme Court will strike down this bill as several other unconstitutonal laws of this administration. It is shameful that so many representatives have given their vote to a flagrant violation of basic civil rights our civilization has to defend and uphold (not deny!) in order to prove to the world the superiority of our Western values.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:38 pm
Al AB:

So now, in order to uphold “American safety” and “freedom” the Republicans are using every dirty trick the comunists used in their day. Remember the Gestapo, anyone?

The first victims of this will be others… in other countries…

But then, one day soon, this is going to backfire on the American public itself. Intimidation will replace our freedom to think.

I’m very sad today. So much for “land of the free”…

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:39 pm
Brad Collins:

To those who approve of setting aside due process and civil liberties in the name of “getting the bad guys”, may I remind you that it was the United States of America that insisted that the Nuremberg trials be conducted according to all the accepted rules of law, by the book, and above board. If those war criminals could be tried under the accepted rule of law, these thugs can certainly be tried and convicted under those same rules.
As a result of the passage of this law the administration has the blessing of Congress to arrest pretty much anyone they deem a threat and hold them indefinitely without any review of any kind. Right now, they are going after Muslims; but I wonder what you will be saying when they come after you. It is more than a pity that a majority of our members of Congress lack the courage to stand up for real American values.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:41 pm
Frank S:

The powers given to the president by this bill would be scary enough if they were being given to a thoughtful, competent president. In the hands of this president, god only knows what will be done. And as he continues to fail in every aspect of his “war on terror” — as in every other aspect of his presidency — what other powers is he going to demand in order to give him more chance of success? It has already been found by many — and not just us darn liberals, but the intelligence community, many in the military, and even a lot of republicans — that Bush’s attempts to beat the terrorists have backfired and only made the world less safe. Why are we handing him more ammunition?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:42 pm
richard:

This is a dark day, and a dark time, for America. Not only has Mr. Bush–with the disgraceful complicity of Congress–shredded the Constitution, but the methods of “interogation” (ie, torture) he seeks permission for are not even effective in garnering useful information from terrorists. We have the worst possible outcome–our moral standing is an international joke, our legal system is under assault, and we will be no safer against further attack than we are today.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
James A. Long:

Unending imprisonment without judicial review because of being accused, not proved to be, an enemy combatant violates the sanctity of human life. Has the government of our country no shame ?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:46 pm
Mike Walker:

Amnesty for torturers, suspension of habeas corpus - some “compromise”! The only things Republicans compromised here were their values and our laws.

In ceding its role as a check and balance to presidential power, Congress has surrendered its legal authority. In compromising their values, these senators have surrendered their moral authority.

It’s time for a new Congress with some backbone and integrity.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
Jane Weber:

The detainee bill passed yesterday is the most outrageous and shameful piece of legislation ever to pass through the halls of Congress. Those so-called “humans” are not representing the American people and are as big an embarrassment to the country as are the criminals in the current administration. The civilized world is awaiting the day when Bush and his goon squad will be tried for war crimes and crimes against humanity. One can only wish that they then too will be subjected to the torture of which they are so fond. I am quite sure our Founding Fathers are spinning in their graves to see what has become of our beloved nation.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:52 pm
Tom - San Jose:

“When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.”

Wake up. It can… no! it IS happening here.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 3:57 pm
Steve:

Thomas A. Vento@’I don’t think the combatants that are trying to kill us deserve the rights that US citizens have.’

“We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness;”

(sigh) Am I the only one the _believes_ that? Sure it’s an easy thing to say: It sounds pretty. I’m such a chump that I thought that we, as a people, aspired to that.

Ok so sending Dred Scott back to slavery wasn’t too good a deal, but we kept working it. I’m sure the Japanese-American’s watching WWII from behind wire fences thought that maybe we didn’t have the courage to walk the talk, but hey we kept working it.

I thought the stories about wild and strange behavior of US soldiers was too far fetched to be believed. I thought, ain’t no way no how a US soldier would mistreat a prisoner - because how we treat prisoners is what sets us apart from them. Until the pictures of Abu Ghraib.

You can take Mr. Vento’s statement and replace “the combatants” and “US Citizen” with “Hutu” and “Tutsi”. Still rings true doesn’t it?

I’ve lost confidence of the inherent goodness and decency of the United States. No terrorist could’ve ever done that.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:02 pm
A. Bugler:

Piece by piece we are eroding the very principles our country was founded on. What used to distinguish us was playing the rules and playing fair. Now, in name of national security, we disregard any rule we don’t happen to like. It’s not okay for our enemies to torture but it’s okay if we do because? Because we say so.

As Pogo once said: We have met the enemy and it is us. What is most unfortunate about this is that these abridgements of rights, whether they be ours or those rounded up for questioning, is depleting the United States of its moral authority, its stature, its integrity. Who admires our country now? Who wishes to be like us? Who feels safer now that we have sown fields of hatred across the world?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:03 pm
Garee:

Those who support these actions in their name miss the significance of those who oppose what is being passed on as homeland defense.
Those who oppose these actions are not “weak” or “cut and runners”, or whatever is being mouthed today by the Republican right.We do not want our country attacked again. We want our country to defend itself with the tools given to it by the Constitution. We want it defended by the strength of our cause. We want it defended this way because to do it in the fashion proposed by our leaders is contrary to what we believe in–the Constituion.
Those who support torture or unending confinement without cause think they can breathe easily with these laws in place because they feel safe–now. But what if 20 years from now the then president decides to say that Presbyterians are “combatants”? Farfetched? How about union members??No way, that couldn’t happen!!!Think…. if you dont define what can’t happen, you open it up to happen. By allowing someone to define who or what a “combatant” is opens the door to such mischief!!
I wish people would truly think of their children and grandchildren when they mindlessly support these kinds of actions taken in the name of “homeland security”.
Who will defend you when it is your turn to be accused… if all others have been removed as enemies???

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:03 pm
Paul Tyler:

Allowing hearsay and secret testimony without due process amounts to a Star Chamber. It is a political court; not necessarily in its intention but in his creation and exception. It sets up a direct path to the destruction of all democratic values by its very design. It is the product of a cabal of people who can find no higher duty than to keep the nation in a constant state of crisis.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:04 pm
kenneth harrow:

the slightness of the threat compared with the overwhelming power of the u.s. means that this is not a national threat. the measures are disproportionate to the actual threat; the fears whipped up are of a piece with far-right regimes who have used such tactics to legitimize police state actions. we have so far lost perspective in this country that it is now no longer viewed as preposterous to pose your question….alas.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:05 pm
Michelle:

What an awful shame to just give this admin what it wants. Another
rubber stamp. What Congress? Everyone is playing follow the leader
oops - fool- G Bush. Whats to come next??

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:07 pm
Robertson7a:

I think that when people call you names, you can usually just think to yourself, “they’re just jealous” or “isn’t it sad that they feel the need to prop up their egos by bashing”.

But henceforth, forevermore, when other countries say that we’re bad people, or we’re a bad country, we won’t be able to know in our heart-of-hearts that they’re wrong.

It’s really getting mortally embarassing, and bone-chillingly frightening.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:07 pm
S. Choi:

Going beyond colorful Democratic and Republican arguments regarding the detainee bill, I believe these times call for a very basic reflection and conversation of what America will become (and is becoming), not laments on what it has been.

When proponents of this bill deem it reasonable to strip the rights of suspected terrorists, they assert that it is necessary in the name of self-defense, that since the terrorists do not respect and operate under the same rules and terms of war that we abide by, it is acceptable for us to treat them likewise.

And following this argument, then it is not such an anomoly that the president would seek a bill expressly allowing him to fight this war on his own terms. But that is exactly the problem. This bill was necessary because the President did not want to be bound by his country’s own legal system. The bill was not necessary to get the job done. It was necessary because the President made it necessary, not because there was a lack of means in our current system to capture and try these terrorists. When a man is given power to act above his own system, it is only a matter of time until the legitimacy of that same system is undermined. During the Senate debates yesterday, Senator Obama wrote in his Remarks that the bill was sloppy, that something as serious as human rights should not be dealt with in such a way. How far does this administration have to go before we ourselves become the victims of such sloppiness? The sloppiness of its Iraq plan has already taken a toll on our soldiers as well as numerous Iraqis.

We’ve become a frivolous country, where we shun true responsibility and pass the power (and thereby, the blame) to those willing to abuse it. The tragedy is not that Bush and his administration are succeeding in their agenda; there will always be those who justify wrongful means for their righteous end. The real tragedy is that we as citizens (including the representatives in the House and Senate) are willing to forego the principles on which our forefathers founded this country to save our own necks. This is not the America I gave up my Korean citizenship for, and I will not stand by to see it be redefined for me.

This bill would not have been passed if the Senate and House felt the pressure from its citizens. After all, representatives are, foremost, our elected voices, and their failure to voice opposition indicates a failure on our part to voice our own.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
mary-leggett browning:

Of course we are all in a terrible time/place, but fear of outside forces should never, never replace our long-time rights of defense for the individual against a temporarily over-blown government. This is too high a price to pay for supposed safety.

What a terrible mistake it would be to ever subject anyone to a court in which they would not be able to confront the evidence or accusers that have placed them in this court.

What are we THINKING?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
_enlogax_:

simply as an observation and as a question of statistics, i wonder:
if 95% of the responses to this question in this forum express emotions ranging from regret to outrage to disgust at the passage of this and other pieces of so-called “anti-terror” legislation, then WHY is it that our elected representatives, who are elected to represent OUR WILL, have overwhelmingly passed a piece of legislation that an apparently representative sample of the reading population has OVERHWELMINGLY CONDEMNED?
whose public opinion are these legislators drawing on, anyways? whose america is this?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:12 pm
Marquis C:

As much as I dislike this administration and their incompetencies, I have to say there are no other meaningful alternative to this bill when it comes to dealing with the Islamic fascists. If reason prevails in the Islamic countries and the population by and large shows movement toward tolerance of other people and ideas then the US congress should repeal this law. What I am suggesting is to introduce ’sunset provision’ in the law.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
JenniP.:

There are more broadminded people generally writing here but as someone who has lived and travelled all around the world, including U.S. (and my husband and kids are U.S. citizens!) I’d say people over there are often unaware of the insidious propaganda being spread and this well predates Bush: the constant scares (like communism used to be and still is to some extent) the flags, the pledges, the constant mantras of being “the only democracy” and generally the only livable place on earth. It has probably worked so well because it has been clever, unrelenting yet rather subtle, and because it is easy to lull people into sweet contentment when their bellies are full (and when they are poorly educated?). It is very much a matter of pulling the right strings. Coupled with the fact that U.S. residents are little exposed to the outside world, they hardly see foreign films (except the remade US version of it) foreign tv series (why are all the “baddies” in U.S. programs always foreign like have british accents!?) and extremely little foreign news (which is usually actually about U.S. elsewhere in the world like the media there often presents Iraq war as their only segment in foreign news) then this breeds the notion of “the other”, makes it easy to dehumanize and unable to feel sympathetic towards, for example, the Iraqis. This is what at least accounts for those 30-40% of ardent Bush supporters. The media I again have to say has done an appalling job, especially during Bush era but also before especially concerning the Israel-Palestine conflict. You are the topic here so I’m going at you but I’m not simplistic like Bush and I just want to add that it’s the nature of societies of humans and animals alike to have constant struggle for dominance so propaganda and other forms of powerplay goes on everywhere (no place is perfect, that is) because there’s always a struggle to dominate conversation -it’s just a matter of degree (North Korea is probably at the highest end of the scale in terms of propaganda!). Democracy means work and that’s what went wrong here. They patted your heads and told you not to worry, that you were living in the best place on earth so smile and go back to play. Those people who hate us? They are just jealous because you got a nice ride. They are inherently evil. Let us take care of it. Shh, go to sleep now. The french have a slightly better idea -they don’t take anything lying down! They just riot for anything, it can get a little funny. But they are working for it, not just shrugging “Oh well, I guess they know what they’re doing.” I have excitedly read about the numerous people in the U.S. who have kept cool heads, who are wise and have actively worked towards a just democracy so please don’t get thin skinned! I’m Scandinavian and apart from various democracies have also lived in dictatorships, too, like Pinochet’s Chile, Franco’s Spain and in Brasil when it was under military rule so I’ve seen all kinds of systems at work. What I want to say is (like some have already mentioned), the “U.S. is best” mantras have worked well to blind people (in U.S.) to the fact that sh*t can happen there, too. You are pretty much sinking into a fascist state. It sounds crazy to me, too!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:16 pm
David Root:

The passage of the provision requested by the President, and crafted by
McCain and others, is a disgrace to the United States. It is hard to believe that this actually passed. I congratualate to one Republican Senator who
voted against the measure, and I am upset by the fact that 12 Democratic
Senators who voted for it. The Democrats should not act out of fear, but
should stand up for the dignity of the United States.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
Marcus Rarick:

The bill is yet another example of the Republican viewpoint that the ends justify the means. From Bush and Cheney telling lie after lie in order to get their war in Iraq to his spying on Americans in violation of the law, this group is intent on destroying the moral fabric of the nation. Their actions will encourage further attacks, the attackers concluding (rightly so based on Bush’s actions) that the way to destroy the American way of life is to destroy our freedom, which Republicans appear more than willing to provide assistance with.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
Charity:

What have we become? Where is the freedom our forefathers fought for? I am so saddened by this flagrant lack of regard for our civil-rights, by our elected officials voting for such a debasing and degrading bill. I am scared at what we are becoming, what we project to the rest of the world - that we are above the Geneva Conventions and can snub our great Constituion. Somehow I still had a shred of hope that our Congress would ‘do the right thing’ and vote against this awful and digusting bill. But no. From bad to worse, I only hope that soon things can start to change, to get turned back on track otherwise it will hard to be an American in this world.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:19 pm
John Houseal:

It is another un-American thing Bush and the Republicans have foisted upon our heritage. Bush has stolen, degraded, and spat on all the values on which this country was founded. He is an empty-headed leader who is leading us down a path towards the lowest common denominator in which we are as depraved as the terrorists. He is doing shameful things which will embarrass our citizens for years to come.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:21 pm
A. Pugh:

Our Congress ripped the thin veneer of civilization in the name of freedom. How can Americans be proud of our leaders if this action is an example of idea of civil rights. Who do we jail for this civil disobedience?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
Bijan:

Perservation of our rights requires constant vigilance against forces of domination and extreme greed. Majority of people in this country have never fought for any of the rights that exists now. We take the rights we have for granted. Mix that with a corrupt mainstream media and
corrupt political system and you have a dangerous recipe for disaster!
More power requires higher responsibility for its rational use and prevention of abuse.
On that front we are facing an exceedingly difficult situation by the action of the only superpower in the world!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:27 pm
Jennifer Hoult:

It is a dark day for the American constitution. Our Congress has made us the first civilized nation to abolish Habeus Corpus, which provides the most fundamental of all legal protections. Furthermore, it has instituted laws that violate the separation of powers, the Due Process clause, and 6th Amendment. We can no longer call ourselves a nation of laws when our leaders openly violate our constitution.

Jennifer Hoult, J.D.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:30 pm
Tom Abrilas:

Torture is not fun–I can vouch for the pain! The Republicans are playing a game that will end up with some Arab country mis treating our GIs –and indicating that it follows the rules of the Geneva convention.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:33 pm
William Wagner:

We get the form of government we deserve.

Now this.

Bill

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:33 pm
Peter B.:

Like so many others posting here, I, too, feel nothing but shame, horror, and an appalling sense of disappointment at our Congress and the President. At a stroke, we have just junked the fundamental freedoms in the American Constitution that we supposedly are fighting the terrorists over. The President (I will never say “our President”) has repeatedly told us that the terrorists hate us because “we’re free.” Well, I guess that’s no longer a problem thanks to this bill, so hopefully the terrorists will no longer hate us.

In a stroke, we have dropped from our basic constitutional system of civil liberties: checks and balances, right to a fair trial (indeed, even a right to a trial at all), right to hear what you are accused of and see the evidence so as to be able to mount a defense, protection from cruel and unusual punishment, and so much more. Yes, these only apply to “enemy combatants,” but the right to name anyone (even Americans) a combatant rests at the whim of a single person, the President, who cannot be challenged by anyone - the courts, Congress, no one.

To those who have posted here saying that this is the best we can hope for given the need to fight “the war on terror,” let me just ask: what more are you willing to give up in the name of fighting terrorism? Yes, terror is horrifying and scary. But how far do you go to stop it? If we say that today the president has the unilateral and unchecked right to jail and to torture indefinitely anyone (Americans, too) without trial as long as he says they were bad people, what will you say tomorrow? That it is okay for the President to veto what the media can print to stop information from reaching the terrrorists? That it is okay to jail people for what they say, write or believe at any time because it might be a clue that they will someday commit terror? Are you basically willing to destroy everything this country stands for in order to fool yourself into believing that you’re any safer?

If so, then I can only remind you of the words of Abraham Lincoln: “At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it?– Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step the Ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never! I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.” Today we have committed a form of national suicide.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:35 pm
David Durant:

If the Bush Administration’s handling of Iraq is an indication of their competence and their ability to understand the consequences of their actions, I don’t understand how anyone can put any faith or confidence in their opinion that these harsh measures are necessary. In Mr. Bush’s third attempt to explain why we are in Iraq, he states
that we are to democratize Iraq and the area. Is this the form of democracy he is trying to sell to the Moslem world?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:37 pm
Carl Lee:

It rates with the Alien and Sedition Act as a Congressional low-point in our history.
We are such hypocrites and this will only at fuel to fire of hate for America around the world.
The very torture this bill allows (by all but those in uniform) resulted in long prison sentences and even death to Japanese who carried out such torture on US soldiers in WWII. This bill gives the CIA and its contractors a “get out of jail free” card.
It puts the K in Amerika.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:40 pm
John:

If our goal is to instigate further resentment and hate and to increase the level of violence it is just right.

Anyone willing to give up their rights (yes, you too can be declared an illegal combatant and stripped of your rights under this law) for eledged security deserve neither.

Imagine if all the affort, money and the immeasurable value of the lives lost in Iraq was instead invested in clean renewable energy, rebuilding Afghanistan and securing our boarders. We wouldn’t need the oil, we’d have muslim friends instead of enemies and the few radicals left wouldn’t be able to get into the U.S.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:41 pm
Stephen D. Ellis:

The detainee bill has been devised by Republicans who want to avoid accountability and accuse opponents of being pansies. This is the same strategy of fear and smear that helped get the last two Presidential elections close enough to steal, and it may work again. Their strategies are politically effective but their policies are inept, immoral, and disastrous for everyone but the insiders who have been granted a piece of the “terror” budget we have charged to future generations. This administration and its fellow travelers have done far more damage to our country and the advance of liberty than any terrorist could ever have hoped. The damage may be irreparable.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
Brigid:

Besides the fact that this bill is morally ambiguous at best and that the mire existence of prison like Guantanimo Bay is terribly frightening. If habeas corpus can be suspended for ‘them’ what is to prevent it from eventually being suspended for ‘us’. Shame on us.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:45 pm
LAWRENCE BISSELL DOYLE JR:

I have called the office of every Class1 (coming up for election in November) Senator that voted for S3930 and vented my spleen in opposition to their vote. I shall support their election opponents both financially and verbally.
That said, I find no fear in opposing this president as I have no doubt that these powers have been, will be, and shall be abused by him against our citizens and foreign supporters.
I am not afraid to speak and die in opposition to the tyranny in this bill.
My forefather, Capt. John Bissell settled Windsor Conn. in 1620. As I peruse again the vast amounts of treasure and blood lost by him and some 2000 progeny in opposition fascism such as this, I cannot go to my big sleep letting them down.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:47 pm
Bob Young:

Shame on congress. They have foisted their responsibility onto the Judiciary. Special shame on McCain and Graham.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:50 pm
Brett S.:

A million people should stand on the streets in Washington, each holding a sign that reads:

Guaranteeing that an Reckless President Does Not Have to Submit to Congressional or Judicial Oversight Does Not Make Us Safer

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:50 pm
George Torphy:

I am ashamed! Ashamed of our President, ashamed of our Congress, ashamed of all the people in this nation that support this law and most of all, ashamed for our country.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Dr. Roberto A. Fois:

The bill passed today gives the president and the secretary of defense great latitude in detainees interrogation, does away with the principle of habeas corpus is a shameful chapter in the legal history of the US and it’s bound to hunt us for generations to come.

The results will be felt in several ways.
First the little moral authority the US had left in the world will vanish with the application of this misguided measure.

Second, the bill will produce a wave of anti-Americanism in the places in the globe where we cannot afford any more hostility.

Our foreign policy is already saying to the world that we regard American lives to be more important than the lives of other people. We are already accused of selectively applying our principles. This new law will unequivocally send the message that yes, in fact we are selective in the interpretation and application of our own laws and principles and the laws of the larger world community.

Third, the bill is a further movement in the direction of the “fascistization” of America. In the name of some sense of personal security we are giving up the very independence and freedom that defines our identity as a country.

One of the most precious freedoms that America has brought to bear in the world scene is the freedom of its citizens from the intrusion and control of their own government.

This is a sad day for America. We went from being a country interested in exporting democracy and freedom, to be a world bully making up the rules of the game just because we happen to have the biggest stick in the playground.

The Bush administration, in its myopic interpretation of reality, is not only mortgaging the financial future of the country with its expensive world policing attitude, it is also planting and feeding the seed of hatred that our children’s children will have to deal with without the resources we have at our disposal today.

Bad idea. Bad, bad idea.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:54 pm
Tim:

Anne D., comment 298, supplies the trite right-wing sentiment that if things were as bad as those who disagree with Pres. Bush say they are we would not be able to have this discussion. This reminds me of the other right-wingers who are quick to argue “If we do that, what’s coming next?” As in, ‘gays can’t marry because it will lead to other [strange combination] marriages.’ Therefore, Anne D., I will utilize this type of explanation now because it’s one that’s likely familiar to you: can’t you see that we are not in the worst-case situation you describe at present, but this administration’s actions are the BEGINNING of the end of our freedoms?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:57 pm
Vince Agostino:

I am sickened and saddened by the misuse of authority and power that our representatives have decided to condone…. We are rapidly become an imperial state run by a hierchy of business titants… our own noble class… the misinformation being fed the American people by corporate power brokers through a conglomerate controlled media has reached a dangerous level…. As in the past, we need to change the guard to bring things back to a moderate level… if they let us….

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:58 pm
Michael Crowley:

The jihadists must be loving this. They are watching and no doubt laughing as they watch the Bush administration make this country more authoritarian day by day.When we have been stripped of all the rights of a real democracy then the jihadists will seek the final step of turning us all into Salafist Muslims.They are brilliantly using this administration to subvert our democratic system. Are the Bushies this stupid or are they complicit?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 4:59 pm
Anagadir:

Believe it or not, but for some time now I’ve been watching Bush to see what scheme he is cooking up to get an extra 4 years. There is something about him that greatly worries me. I’m an American in a nice house and a nice job and can only imagine how the Moslims in Quantanamo are feeling. Like Hell.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:01 pm
R. Moore:

Why should terrorists be accorded the rights of US Citizens? Why should terrorists be accorded any rights under the Geneva convention? Why should we elevate a terrorist to the level of a POW? What country do they represent? How many holes in the ground in Manhattan will it take before the “hate America crowd” feels we should take off the gloves and stop letting the terrorists manipulate our courts and political structure as weapons against us? How many dead Americans, killed on American soil, will it take before left wing partisans understand that the terrorists don’t hate Republicans, they hate Americans?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:02 pm
John Leo:

The Laws that the Executive Branch have demanded and which the Congress has submissively passed are not needed to extend our current statutes and Case Law. A criminal is a criminal - but only once he is found guilty of commiting a crime. The “Detaines” around the world have been illegally held outside of our Judicary’s responsibility to judge guilt or innocence. We are in a Constitutional crisis as well as a moral crisis.

The actions of our currrent administration are illegal and they are a pathetic attempt to overcome gross incompetence and selfserving political gains.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:04 pm
David Currier:

I feel no safer today than I did after 9/11. Banning toothpaste and liquids were window dressing. I sense that a crafty bomber could more easliy fabricate an explosive device from a cell phone and simply call that phone inflight. Yet cell phones were not banned. Now this unconstitutional law is being promoted so that George-the-Decider appears as a tough-guy and really in control. Would somebody please bring back the real Bozo The Clown show? I’m bored with this one. Problem is, this one gives me nightmares!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:05 pm
Peter Coyote:

If our government was concerned with our safety they would not have cut the budgets of oversight agencies protecting consumers, workers, and the environment. The ‘war on terror’ serves to herd the public and make them tractable to a diminution of their essential freedoms. It does nothing to protect us. Since the government has not fortified chemical plants in the United States or nuclear plants and storage facilities, we are completely vulnerable. Taking off shoes and belts and not x-raying suitcases checked below is a symptom of the same dysfunction. Now that we’ve ‘legalized’ torture and secret prisons, and given the determination of what’s legal to our President, we have sacrificed our moral standing in the world—have fallen from what was once a bright and shining beacon of hope to the world, to the richest, most powerful, Third World country on the planet. I am ashamed of my Congress and if I didn’t need my passport to re-enter the country to visit my children, I would have burned it today.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:10 pm
Mark:

I am afraid that with this one bill this administration has accomplished the goals of al Qaeda. Al Qaeda wants to destroy the American way of life? This bill opens the door to accomplishing exactly that. And all in the name of fighting these same terrorists.

Those who ignore the law and attack innocents should be brought to justice. But they should be brought JUSTICE, not rendered into a secret and invisible gulag. Bring the full force of American might and justice to bear on them. But do it under the rule of law. The rule of law means nothing unless it applies to everyone.

The real problem with this bill is that it opens the door to doing away with the checks and balances that are the genius of our system of government. If applied in good faith this law will be an effective tool. But if applied with malice, or incompetence, there is no way to detect the abuse or correct the error. This law puts the freedoms of each and every one of us at risk.

Someone commented that they are scared? They have a right to be. I pray that this is only a small stumble in the path of our great democracy. But if it should turn out to be otherwise, if this great republic descends into totalitarianism, then it began here, with the unlocking of this door.

We should all do everything we can to make sure that this does not stand and that the respect for the freedoms that have been so hard won in western democracy are not compromised. Do whatever you can. Do whatever it takes. But do something!

Mark

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:13 pm
GUY FALGOUT:

Bush is only a puppet on strings being pulled by the sadistic neo-cons of his administration. The Democrats and Republicans are also to blame for letting this travestry to continue to fester. Impeachment of this president should be top priorty, not voting on the right to torture other human beings. Truly, a very sad week in the history of our “once” great country. I wonder if the people who allowed this to become law can really live with a clear concious? I cannot see how this is possible. This, my fellow Americans, is the beginning of the end. PEACE!!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:14 pm
Preston L. Winters:

For me, the brightest spot in this otherwise gloomy day is this forum, in which the overwhelming majority of respondents has expressed their sadness, outrage and disbelief concerning the actions of our government. With varying degrees of eloquence, almost everybody who has taken the time to vent here has at least given me hope that the systematic shredding of our Constitution by the Republican party (and a few syncophantic Democrats who fear that the majority of voters in their states or districts are indeed as gullible and ignorant as they suspect them to be) did not go entirely unnoticed. Thank you all, and please don’t forget to vote (while you still can).

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
Wilbert Smeets:

Hi all,

First of all let me say this: I am not American, but I know a lot ot you folks out there are ashamed to be one at the moment.

I am a human in the first place, Dutch second and Europian third. I can only tell you that mr. Bush has made Americans look so bad in the rest of the world since he became president. He lied to you, he lied to his slaves, correction, allies… And now he allows torture, without ever having to prove someone actually did something wrong. I feel sorry for you at this moment. And I feel sorry for the world. I hope your next presidents agenda is the agenda of humanity. We would all benefit. And as for as terrorisme goes… I am not a terrorist, but torture me 1 time, and I will become one. I wish you all the best.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:20 pm
Charlie:

Isn’t it ironic that we’re having this conversation? Some of us are fighting for the rights of those whose only mission is to destroy the United States and all it stands for, including our model of a Constitution, using that very Constitution as the base for the arguments. The Constitution was not written to protect our enemies; it was written to protect the citizens of our country.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:23 pm
Jim-Dallas:

I think this Administration will still continue their current practices if the Bill does not pass. They will just try not to get caught again. If they do, they will claim it is a necessary evil for National Security which they are doing now. I have no trust of this Administration. Who is being held responsible for the failure to enforce the international laws or the Geneva Convention in this Administration to date? Why hasn’t our National Security Advisor been asked to step down? Have we lost complete control of the Government?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:25 pm
Linda Brown:

I am so saddened by what is happening in my country. I implore every American who believes in freedom and liberty to go to the polls in November and vote out anyone who is trampeling our Constitution. I am afraid my country is sliding into oblivion. It may be too late to undo this travesty. Please go and exercise your right to vote before it’s too late.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:28 pm
Dave Bryan:

Those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:36 pm
Elizabeth Hillmann:

Absolutely NOT.
It is shameful. I am a Veteran of WWII and am ashamed of the people who voted for this bill which is so immoral and only gives the president more dictatorial powers..

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:45 pm
E. Prentis:

A sickening display by Bush and the Republicans of election year politicking.

I am more afraid of the Republican warmongering terrorists in Washington than anywhere else.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:46 pm
Manuel:

No it is not necessary. It’s a victory for the terrorist. They have won, the world is less free.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:52 pm
Shyamal Ganguly:

There is no such thing as indefinite period for holding people on suspicion. Government can not hold ITS CITIZENS without trial except for a short period (may be 24 or 48 hours). Government can hold foreigners on suspicions indefintely, until their consulates get involved and use due process of International laws. Holding Al Queda members from Pakistan in Guantanamo Bay was Legal and necessary. These psychotic killers vowed for killing innocent people, just because they are Americans. Just think about it.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:53 pm
M.Stratas:

The real test of courage is doing the right thing even in very difficult conditions. After 911, the Bush administration claims the world has changed and therefore, they can change the principles that have guided America for over 200 years. It is wrong and cowardly.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 5:59 pm
Gene Sperling:

I thought that this was settled a couple of hundred years ago?

Seriously though, I feel revulsed to be associated with these leaders so wounded and encased in their own petty fears.

When do we begin the dialogue on impeachment?

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:01 pm
Jack Grogan:

Let’s end the stupid arguments and elect Democrats so that they can appoint the American Civil Liberties Union to manage homeland security and take over security of our border with Mexico.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:03 pm
Nancy Engelsberg:

The law that the Senate and House have just passed is a travesty. The USA which used to be a beacon of democracy for all peoples has descended to the level of the KGB-ensconced Soviet Union — or worse. This is not my country, this is not the USA I have always known. Mr. Torture — ah, no! not torture: redefine the terms so Mr.Torture can sleep at night. May he some day — not our military — be subjected to the methods he has sought to “legalize.” I guess our only hope is the Supreme Court — and the coming elections.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:14 pm
Jim Ouellette:

Be careful what you say. You may find yourself in Guantamo Bay!

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:14 pm
Rob Littell:

It’s a requiered tool insofar as Pres.Bush needs to do Rove’s political bidding.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:17 pm
+lansford:

I imagine, that only in America, are people discussing fervently the behaviour of the Bush administration and their assault on your constitution. As one who admires America’s uniqueness in history, I also never doubted that America could proudly described itself as the world’s super terrorist ( South and Latin America, the Caribbean etc., and that for the past few decades.
Now in lock step with Israel and its inhuman policies in Palestine, there are now two bullies in the playground, so I have just decided not to purchase anything made in the U.S.A. or to purchase from any business owned or operated by a U.S. or Israeli interest. No, I am not racist or any such thing, but this is the way that I can protest effectively and peacefully against evil doers. I hope other will join me in doing so. Eventually, we will all realise that we inhabit one small shrinking planet and learn to get along with each other, irrespective of colour, gender, nationality, religion, etc.. One love , brother and sister.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:18 pm
PJ Parkinson:

I have been around long enough to have seen many Republican administrations come and go. This is the old “law and order” dressed up in the new clothes of “anti-terrorism”. It continues to baffle me that some people in this country cannot see this for what it really is: the continued assault against our individual civil liberties. This just proves the lie in the continual drone from the right wing media that the Democrats have no new ideas, when in fact it is the Republicans that continue to trot out the same old ineffectual and repressive ideas.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:27 pm
Josh Rubin:

I will never again believe a US spokesperson who says “We are a nation of laws.”
And neither will our enemies.

posted on September 29th, 2006 at 6:37 pm